squirrel Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Following on from the excellent thread on Colour Sergeant's insignia, I telephoned the RHQ of the Household Cavlary to see if I could obtain information on their NCO & WO ranks and insignia. I was told that they were unable to provide this information over the telephone under the Data Protection Act! Have sent an e-mail requesting same info to the Household Cavalry Museum - I wonder what their answer will be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 For the Household Cavalry I have;- Trooper Lance Corporal Corporal Corporal of Horse Staff Corporal Squadron Quartermaster Corporal - can be appointed "Orderly-room Corporal of Horse" Squadron Corporal Major(WOII) - can be appointed "instructor in musketry"; "instructor in fencing & gymnastics"; "riding instructor" Farrier Corporal Major(WOI) Regimental Corporal Major(WOI) Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Cant quite see what data they are protecting...and why should any data be less secure if they send it in writing rather than over the phone seems a bit of a fob off to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 As for Household Cavalry insignia I have;- R.C.M. - Royal Arms worn on forearm Squadron Corporal Major - crown worn on forearm Squadron Quartermaster Corporal - 4 inverted chevrons with crown above; the trumpet major wears the same but with crossed trumpets and crown above. Cpl of Horse - 3 chevrons and crown above; band C.of.H replaces crown with bandsmans lyre pattern badge which is crowned. Cpl - two chevrons L/Cpl - crown over one chevron Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Following on from the excellent thread on Colour Sergeant's insignia, I telephoned the RHQ of the Household Cavlary to see if I could obtain information on their NCO & WO ranks and insignia. I was told that they were unable to provide this information over the telephone under the Data Protection Act! Have sent an e-mail requesting same info to the Household Cavalry Museum - I wonder what their answer will be? Ah yes. The DPA excuse. Quite taken over from the Box and Cox manoeuvre. DPA refers to data stored electronically. If they had it written in an old school exercise book, they could have just read it over the phone. Almost impossible to distinguish between proper use of the Act and bureaucratic procrastination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 16 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Thanks all for the information and comments, much appreciated as always - in my innocence I thought I might have speaking to a soldier who could have told me off the top of his head - obviously not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 For the Household Cavalry I have;- Trooper Lance Corporal Corporal Corporal of Horse Staff Corporal Squadron Quartermaster Corporal - can be appointed "Orderly-room Corporal of Horse" Squadron Corporal Major(WOII) - can be appointed "instructor in musketry"; "instructor in fencing & gymnastics"; "riding instructor" Farrier Corporal Major(WOI) Regimental Corporal Major(WOI) Graham. Is this meant to be 1914 1918, or now? My understanding is that in 1914 1918 there was no rank badge of one chevron, crown above. To de-mystify Household Cavalry rank and badges, disregard the crown for ranks up to Corporal of Horse, and think of this latter as sergeant [sacrilege, I know, but it helps]. I also suspect that the SQMC is just an appointment for a Staff Corporal, and that both wear a four bar chevron, points up, with crown above. At the present, above Trooper there is LCpl: 2 chevrons [crown above] LCpl of Horse : 3 chevrons [crown above] paid as full Cpl, member of SNCOs Mess. [supplanted Corporal in about 1970] Cpl of Horse [same badge as above, but some embellishments in some orders of dress] paid as Sergeant. These peculiarities ensure parity with Foot Guards, who also have no badge of one chevron, and who retain LSgt [full Cpl with SNCO Mess privileges] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walrus Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 I thought L/Cpl of Horse wore three chevrons and Cpl of Horse wore three chevrons and a crown. Is this a total error or have/had matters changed? Tom (the Walrus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Grumpy, Information gleaned from B.L.Davis former Life Guards and ranks dated 1936-1940. There definately appears to be a rank Staff Corporal, which isn't an appointment, the same applies to Squadron Quartermaster Corporal which is a rank, whose appointment was Orderly Room Corporal of Horse. Lance Corporal chevron with crown above was c.1936. My apologies should have dated it, and in my haste to get away to work should have also described the Corporals rank as two chevrons with crown, but have no date, so can assume it may also have been c.1936. It seems that this peculiarty of rank badges wasn't confined to the Household Cavalry as the L/Cpl's and Cpl's Royal Gloucestershire Hussars also wore the same. Again can't really argue with any of this as he uses the Pay Warrant for 1940, A.C.I.'s etc. Had an interesting conversation with a former WOII who served in both the RE's and KSLI/Light Infantry, who is now a researcher. He had to admit that he has learned more about rank and appointment since leaving the Army than during his twenty odd years of service and that the majority of those he knew, knew less about rank and structure, than probably many people who do research. Even senior NCO's weren't inclined to actually read QR's on rank, and he once new a newly promoted WOII who thought he had the same privileges as officers on parade and was hoping to wear a sword. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Major N Dawnay's 'Rank badges etc ...' is generally accepted as THE authority. He describes the single chevron as [from memory] 'mythical and was never worn even though prescribed by regulation'. My problem with SQMC as a rank is that there is one rank too many! Look at current infantry RANKS eg: pte, lcpl [now a rank, once an appointment], cpl [could be appointed lsgt up to 1946], sgt, csgt [several appointments including CQMS], WOII [lots of appointments including CSM, RQMS], WO I [mainly RSM]. That is 7 pay grades. Now Household Cavalry: trooper, lcpl, lcpl of horse, cpl of horse, staff corporal, WO II, WO I. 7 pay grades. I will attempt to scan the relevant bit of Dawnay and post it for you. I also have Linaker and Dines's book on Cavalry Arm Badges: a speed-read suggest that they agree with me. As for LCpl of Horse 3 chevrons and crown, I am certain that I am right: the crown is, in effect, a cavalry NCO arm badge, not a rank marker. I have a feeling that, in some orders of dress, the LCoH crown is different from the CoH crown, but cannot find a reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Hmm. Yes. Having to deal with such things occasionally and professionally, I hate seeing legislation - which at its heart is quite sensible - being used as a smokescreen for 'can't be bothered'. Want to really upset them? Resubmit it, but make it a Freedom of Information Act request. They can't ignore that, and if they try to fob it off with the 'not economically viable' to answer it, that is phooey as they should have a list. Five minute job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 This is an attempt at the part 1 of 4 of the relevant part of Dawnay's magnum opus. Remember it was written pre LCpl of Horse replacing corporal. It looks as if it is too squidgy to read: I will e-mail to Graham Stewart, and to anyone who gives me e-mail address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 I have now had time to check KR amended to 1 August 1914. Bear in mind that WO II rank had not been created. These are the Household Cavalry ranks with associated appointments. and Group in Precedence Table thus [x]: [vii]trooper [with appointment possible as LCpl, which has subsequently become a rank], [vi]Cpl [which subsequently was retitled LCoH], [v]Cpl of Horse [appointments include CoH trumpeter, Farrier CoH, Orderly Room CoH, Paymaster CoH, Saddler CoH .....], [iv]Staff Corporal [which was formally equated to CSgt] [with appointments to include those in red above if ranking as CSgt], and also the Squadron QM Cpl and Squadron Corporal Major bracketed together with Staff Cpl in Group iv. of the precedence table]. Of these SQMC and SCM, the latter became a WO II, and the former retained his lower status in 1915, much as the CSM/CQMS split in the infantry. [iii]Quartermaster Corporal Major [not yet a WO II], [appointments to include all sorts, but the most senior status was that of the Regimental QMCM, the equivalent of the infantry RQMS. All QMCM became WO II in 1915. Groups [ii] and have no relevance to Household Cavalry. Above these Groups are the WOs, who include [Regimental] Corporal Major and Farrier Corporal Major. I hope this can put the matter to bed. I can, if needs be, do the same task for later KRs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 17 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Thanks once again for this, especially Grumpy who has apparently toiled for hours looking up the references. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Thanks once again for this, especially Grumpy who has apparently toiled for hours looking up the references. do you want the Dawnay pages, if so remind me of your email please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 17 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Have sent you a pm with my e-mail address. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 despatched Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 as an addendum, there is a consensus on the web that a Cpl of Horse wears a METAL crown over his three chevrons, whereas a LCpl of Horse wears a worsted crown. I have no impeccable authority for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 18 January , 2007 Share Posted 18 January , 2007 WOI = Regimental Corporal Major & Farrier Corporal Major To round off this thread I'm going to try and reproduce the rank badges as described by Grumpy and myself, dating from 1936, but will stand to be corrected if he thinks otherwise. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 18 January , 2007 Share Posted 18 January , 2007 Regimental Quartermaster Cpl Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 18 January , 2007 Share Posted 18 January , 2007 WOII = Squadron Cpl Major Can hold varying WOII appointments at this rank. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 18 January , 2007 Share Posted 18 January , 2007 Squadron Cpl Major & Staff Cpl Seems to be some dispute between Dawnay & Davis on this one regarding the Staff Cpl. Dawnay says the 4bar chevron only without crown was worn on jacket and greatcoat, whereas Davis say's the 4bar chevron was worn on the greatcoat only. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 18 January , 2007 Share Posted 18 January , 2007 Trumpet Major. Again using the four bar chevron. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 18 January , 2007 Share Posted 18 January , 2007 Corporal of Horse Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 18 January , 2007 Share Posted 18 January , 2007 Band Corporal of Horse. Again using a three bar chevron. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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