Muerrisch Posted 1 November , 2006 Share Posted 1 November , 2006 The normal chevron had a pattern like: >>>>>>>>>>> running through it. But a pattern with xxxxxxxxxxxxx is far from rare, but seemingly only during the war. Am I right in thinking this was a stopgap measure, as there seems no unit consistency. I have severall photos in wear, and examples exist in museums. Here is a rather poor scan showing one on RFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 1 November , 2006 Share Posted 1 November , 2006 I had wondered about this too and initially thought it might be for bandsmen and drums or similar. However, as your photo shows and you state, it does not appear to have been worn by anybody in particular. Certainly an RFA gun layer is unlikely to have been in a band or drums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 1 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2006 The subject of the photo is the father of Denis Edwards, of British Army Proficiency Badges fame, and owner of the most complete collection of such badges as anyone is ever likely to put together. Makes mine look sad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymro Posted 1 November , 2006 Share Posted 1 November , 2006 If it helps, I have a tropical tunic to the 4th Welsh which sports XXXXXXX type sergeants stripes. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 1 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2006 Yes, that does help: here we have evidence of wear by TF and overseas. Any chance of a photo please? Is the jacket dateable [manufacturers patch inside or whatever?] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gporta Posted 1 November , 2006 Share Posted 1 November , 2006 This is a Low-Res picture from a book featuring a Machine Gun Corps Lance Corporal (note the good conduct chevron is "standard"). The stitched cap peak says "post-1916" ... Maybe a "war economy" chevron issue? Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 1 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2006 Most interesting: both types on one uniform. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 1 November , 2006 Share Posted 1 November , 2006 Was it an attempt at a "subdued" form of insignia perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 1 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2006 If you half close your eyes, I believe it is brighter and more obtrusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 1 November , 2006 Share Posted 1 November , 2006 Grumpy, Here is one of LCpl George Petrie Ogilvy Shepherd, 15th (City of Glasgow) Battalion, HLI. This is a New Army battalion of the HLI. He is also wearing this type of chevron: Hope this adds to the thread Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 1 November , 2006 Share Posted 1 November , 2006 Grumpy, I know that there were several types of chevron patterns sealed up to WWI for use on Drab/khaki uniforms. They were distinguished by Chevrons for Drab Great Coats versus chevrons for SD jackets etc. Sometime during the war all but one were declared obsolete (the familiar more common chevron used till well after WWII). I have this info but don't recall the details nor really looked up the differences. I'll do that to see if there is enough detail in the RACD books to determine which is which. It may just be a matter of soldiers using what-ever pattern was available on their uniform whether meant for a jacket, frock or great coat, but I'm far from certain on this. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 2 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 2 November , 2006 Thank you: a minor mystery, and I await any further input with interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2006 Thank you for that: I look forward to seeing your examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 4 November , 2006 Share Posted 4 November , 2006 and this mans good conduct stripe is xxxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 4 November , 2006 Share Posted 4 November , 2006 Grumpy, No where near definative but here's what I found on the hunt. Not only were chevron's pattern sealed but the lace used to make them were also pattern sealed. Chevrons for the SD jackets and Good Conduct Badges were pattern sealed in 1901. These were to be made of 1/2" worsted lace backed by melton wool. The lace was pattern sealed in 1900 (5035/1900 and again renewed in 1907 and again in 1918). There is actually a sample for this lace in the pattern books and its your bog standard chevron used well after the Great War. A separate set of Chevrons were pattern sealed in 1901 for the Drab Great coat. These were to be made of 5/8" worsted lace backed by Melton wool. This lace was pattern approved in 1900 and slightly modified in 1901. It was renewed in early 1918. Unfortunately, there is no sample or it has disappeared over time. My one set of crossed hatched chevrons measure at 5/8", but this is hardly conclusive and it is only one sample, especially since an 1/8" is such a small difference. In Jan 1918 the use of drab union cloth was allowed as a backing along with the original melton. In May 1918 the Great Coat Chevrons were declared obsolete and all Drab and KD uniforms would use the Chevrons with 1/2" lace as used for SD Jackets and GC Chevrons. I think this came about because no-one was really caring which type of chevron was used for Great coat or jacket as there are plenty of Great coats existing and prevelent in photos that had or have the SD Jacket variety on them. Pretty much a futile effort to have different patterns. I could find zero reference on any type of "emergency", simplified or alternate chevron's in the books--but this is by no means conclusive because there is a book missing from just this time period. I've been successful in identifying/reconstructing most pattern numbers from this missing book by tracking obsolecence information in the 1916 through 1929 books--but this hasn't been a 100% sure thing. I would suspect that the cross hatched chevron could be great coat chevrons if measured at 5/8" or if 1/2" it could be something as simple as acceptance of product not 100% IAW pattern but still good to go as an acceptable substatute. I actually could find no pre-war photos of a Great Coat with chevron's to see if they were crossed hatched. Unfortunately, I don't think this answers your questions. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2006 So it is: thats a first for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in minnesota Posted 4 November , 2006 Share Posted 4 November , 2006 Here are a couple variations: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2006 Excellent: this thread is becoming a good resource, without actually answering my problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2006 No, but it adds to the sum of human knowledge! Very many thanks for your research. This will be worked into my article on the Good Conduct badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 1 January , 2007 Share Posted 1 January , 2007 The normal chevron had a pattern like: >>>>>>>>>>> running through it. But a pattern with xxxxxxxxxxxxx is far from rare, but seemingly only during the war. Am I right in thinking this was a stopgap measure, as there seems no unit consistency. I have severall photos in wear, and examples exist in museums. Here is a rather poor scan showing one on RFA. Grumpy, I know that there were several types of chevron patterns sealed up to WWI for use on Drab/khaki uniforms. They were distinguished by Chevrons for Drab Great Coats versus chevrons for SD jackets etc. Sometime during the war all but one were declared obsolete (the familiar more common chevron used till well after WWII). I have this info but don't recall the details nor really looked up the differences. I'll do that to see if there is enough detail in the RACD books to determine which is which. It may just be a matter of soldiers using what-ever pattern was available on their uniform whether meant for a jacket, frock or great coat, but I'm far from certain on this. Joe Sweeney To bring this back to the top... I took an interest in this thread when I first saw it, as I too was intrigued by the origins of this rarely seen style. One of my Christmas presents this year was Dolf Goldsmiths "The Devil's Paintbrush", and illustration 117 on page 119 is a photo of four British soldiers who have graduated from the armourers course on the Maxim, Gardener and Nordenfelt gun. Although its hard to see on the picture as printed in the book, the Lance Corporal depicted second from the left would appear to have the cross-type chevrons for his rank chevrons on his Service Dress tunic, and possibly also for a long service/good conduct stripe on his lower left sleeve. The picture was taken at the Enfield Arsenal on April 28th 1910, and is credited to the Imperial War Museum - if he is indeed wearing the cross-type chevrons, this would push their date of issue and wear on SD to well before WW1, which would suggest they were not simply a temporary or stop-gap issue for WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 1 January , 2007 Share Posted 1 January , 2007 To bring this back to the top... Although its hard to see on the picture as printed in the book, the Lance Corporal depicted second from the left would appear to have the cross-type chevrons for his rank chevrons on his Service Dress tunic, and possibly also for a long service/good conduct stripe on his lower left sleeve. The picture was taken at the Enfield Arsenal on April 28th 1910, and is credited to the Imperial War Museum - if he is indeed wearing the cross-type chevrons, this would push their date of issue and wear on SD to well before WW1, which would suggest they were not simply a temporary or stop-gap issue for WW1. Andrew, Very interesting. This would definately pre-date any type of war time expediancy. Never did find any reference in the RACD pattern books for that type of issue (although there is a 14-15 book missing). Since there was no pattern detail on the other types of stripes that were issued with SD articles of uniform like Great coats, it may still be that these are in fact being used for SD jacklets also, or simply these were commercially available stripes that were a preference. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 1 January , 2007 Share Posted 1 January , 2007 Here a pic of a Second War Aussie wearing "crosshatch" stripes. sorry about the size of it but the cropping program has gone down ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 3 January , 2007 Share Posted 3 January , 2007 And here is a postcard upon which is written "Alexandria 1919" so they continued to be worn in British Service at least immediately postwar too. BTW can anyone ID the unit on this? I cannot - close ups added. I thought it was ASC initially but..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 3 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2007 Many thanks to all: in years to come, this thread will be THE authority on the xxxxxx chevrons in wear. As for the last post, perhaps RE, but I am not confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Hauraki KIA KAHA Posted 3 January , 2007 Share Posted 3 January , 2007 Hi Is it not 'Army Service Corps?" The NZ ARmy Service Corps badge was the Same as the British Badge. So that why I no Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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