War grave criteria

[saw1960]

Can anyone tell me what the criteria is for having a war grave? Looking on the CWGC some of the dead are down as being civilians. I thought it was just combatants.

[John_Hartley]

Simon

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that whilst the WW2 civilian war casualties are commemorated on the Commission's Debt of Honour Register, the actual graves are not maintained by them.

So, generally, speaking , you are right that a "war grave" will be only combatants. There are exceptions like say, the Chinese Labour Corps.

If you have a look at the "pinned" post in the "possible non-commemoration" sub-section , you'll see the basic criteria that need to be met to determine "war grave" status for combatants.

John

[Terry Denham]

This is the qualification list.

War Grave status is granted according to the following criteria. This was the same for both world wars excepting the qualifying dates which were (for WW1) 04.08.14 - 31.08.21 inclusive and (for WW2) 03.09.39 - 31.12.47 inclusive.

1) Any serving member of a Commonwealth armed force who died during the qualifying dates in any location and of any cause whatsoever. The causes of death can categorised as follows - Killed in Action, Died of Wounds, Died of Illness, Died by Accident, Died through Homicide or Suicide and Died through Judicial Execution.

2) Any former member of a Commonwealth armed force who died during the qualifying dates of injuries or a condition related to service during the qualifying dates. (Men/women who died of wounds or illness after discharge).

3) A member of one of the Recognised Civilian Organisations (eg Mercantile Marine, Red Cross, YMCA etc) who died whilst on duty AND of a war cause or the increased threat brought on by war during the qualifying dates.

Having a CWGC headstone or having a private headstone does not alter the casualty's entitlement to War Grave status and listing by CWGC.

As John says, CWGC are also obliged to record the names (not care for the graves) of Commonwealth Civilian War Dead from WW2 (not from WW1). These are marked as 'Civilian War Dead' in their database. Their graves are not official war graves.

[Joan and Terry]

We have in our local cemetery a War Grave to a soldier killed by the I.R.A. in the 70's his name is also on the War Memorial.His parents fought for years with the CWGC to have a headstone and in our opinion rightly won their case.

Joan

[John_Hartley]

Joan

Although it may look like a standard CWGC headstone (and may have been supplied by them), it won't be an official "war grave". Only those killed during the two World Wars have this status.

John

[PBI]

In Belgium and France there are Civilian Dead buried in British War Cemeteries and they have CWWGC headstones.Red Farm is the Cemetery in Belgium,the Other i recal is in the Loos Sector and a lot of French Coalminers are buried in the Cem,i cant remember which cemetery it is..sorry

[Terry Denham]

We have in our local cemetery a War Grave to a soldier killed by the I.R.A. in the 70's his name is also on the War Memorial.His parents fought for years with the CWGC to have a headstone and in our opinion rightly won their case.

Joan

This is not a war grave as CWGC cannot commemorate anyone outside of the qualifying periods.

It will be what is called a Non-World War Pattern headstone supplied by the MoD - similar but not the same.

CWGC only supply Non-World War headstones for burials in their own cemeteries or plots. When they occur in churchyards or local authority cemeteries, they are supplied by the MoD or the relatives.

There are four different patterns of Non-World War Headstones currently in use - (1) CWGC Provided in their cemeteries (2) MoD Army Pattern (3) MoD Royal Navy Pattern and (4) Royal Air Force Pattern.

I'll sort some pics and post below.

[PBI]

How did the Belgian and French Civvies come to be Buried in Military Cemeteries and with CWWGC Headstones ?

[stevem49]

This is not a war grave as CWGC cannot commemorate anyone outside of the qualifying periods.

It will be what is called a Non-World War Pattern headstone supplied by the MoD - similar but not the same.

Some civvies qualify - work for cwgc etc.

They have the top edges cut out to show they are not War dead from the military.

The CWGC headstone is also 'patented'

stevem

[Terry Denham]

No. There is confusion here.

CWGC Staff do NOT qualify nor do any civilians who do not qualify under the terms applicable to Recognised Civilian Organisations as shown above.

CWGC Staff have Non-World War Pattern headstones. The style of headstone DOES NOT denote whether it is a war grave. There are some Non-World War headstones from the 1920s (before the NWW pattern was devised) which look identical to CWGC headstones and these are sometimes found in CWGC cemeteries for civilian burials of the period.

The ONLY way of confirming that a war grave is an official war grave is to see if it is listed by CWGC as 'Commonwealth War Dead' in their database.

The CWGC headstone was under copyright but this has now expired.

[PBI]

The Belgian and French Civilians were KILLED during the War,so how do they Qualify for this Commemoration ?

[Terry Denham]

They do not.

Just because they are buried within a CWGC cemetery does not mean they have Commonwealth war graves status.

Remember that CWGC did not bury these people. That was done by the army and local authorities before CWGC came on the scene - and in some cases before CWGC was even invented.

CWGC has inherited these burials in their cemeteries. They care for the graves with the war graves either by agreement with someone else (foreign government) or simply just because they are there and not to do so would be both churlish and spoil the look of the cemetery. They were hardly going to throw them out when they took over the cemeteries after the war.

To be technical they are classed as....

Category 3 - Non-World War Graves in CWGC Care

Category 5 - Non-World War Graves in CWGC Care (Incidental & Conducive)

Category 6 - Non-World War Graves in CWGC Care (Staff)

These graves are recorded by CWGC but are not available through their website. If you want any details on any of them, let me know (there are about 40,000 of them!).

[Terry Denham]

There follows examples of Non-World War headstones which are often mistaken for CWGC Commonwealth War Grave headstones.

Type I - CWGC Supplied Non-World War Headstone for use in their plots.

[Terry Denham]

Type 2 - MoD Supplied - Army

Type 3 - MoD Supplied - Royal Navy

Type 4 - MoD Supplied - Royal Air Force

[Terry Denham]

Type 5

This is the type of headstone used in the 1920s before the special shapes were introduced.

The only way of telling it from a CWGC stone is by the date.

There were some other variations which were used before the styles settled down to what we have today.

[Terry Denham]

Here is a Non-World War style supplied by CWGC for their plots in the 1940s.

(The man was a retired soldier)

[Terry Denham]

I hope that clarifies the headstone situation - or have I just confused everyone

[Terry Denham]

It is also worth mentioning that the Army and Royal Navy often had their own styles of headstone for both war graves and Non-World War graves which they used in their own cemeteries - often different designs in different cemeteries.

The above is an example

[PBI]

Thanks for the Explanation and the Photos...

[1RGLI]

Would love to see a book on all this, its a facinating area and well worthy of a book to educate the public, if one is available on the subject please let us know. If not hopefully somebody is thinking of writing one with pictures included.

 

Mark.

[nigelcave]

On 27/10/2006 at 13:50, PBI said:

The Belgian and French Civilians were KILLED during the War,so how do they Qualify for this Commemoration ?

I mentioned in an earlier thread the question of the row of French civilian graves (unmarked) in Rocquigny-Equancourt Road British Cemetery: identified in the register, their location self evident (as more or less a blank row within a plot) but no headstone. When I queried this (must be seven or more years ago now) I got a reply from the then DG explaining that headstones would be put up if they were provided by the French and he (or doubtless someone junior in the CWGC) was going to ask them about the matter. I actually did not hear any more on the subject but did find that the graves now all have French military cemetery crosses on them. So, the point is that the IWGC never gave them a headstone and never would have off their own bat. 

[fellop]

For Terry Denham Please.

Sorry I know it is me and the little grey cells do not work as fast as they once did.

 

One of the criteria for being classed War Grave Status is :

 

A member of one of the Recognised Civilian Organisations (eg Mercantile Marine, Red Cross, YMCA etc) who died whilst on duty AND of a war cause or the increased threat brought on by war during the qualifying dates.

 

 

You give a photo of L Holford. Now I can understand that he is classed as civilian and is shown as such on the CWGC site and am I correct in saying that his grave has War Grave Status? In that the CWGC are responsible for the grave and that the Headstone is a CWGC Non War headstone.

 

I attach two photos. This is only a query on my part to try and understand, Of what appear to me to be CWGC pattern non war headstone. Neither of these appear on the CWGC website either as civilian or military war dead. I am trying to understand why or the difference, lets say, between these two and L Holford.

 

Apologies it is me not grasping the point of something.

 

Regards

Peter

Edit Sorry unsure what has gone wrongs with formatting.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 10 June , 2020 by fellop

[Terry Denham]

Peter

 

Do not confuse the Recognised Civilian Organisations with Non-World War Dead. They are two different categories.

 

1) Recognised Civilian Organisations.

War Grave status strictly is limited under the terms of CWGC's Royal Charter to military personnel. However, this was extended to cover members of certain Commonwealth civilian organisations in both wars who served under the control of the Commonwealth military, worked alongside Commonwealth military or routinely confronted the enemy (eg Mercantile Marine). Members of these organisations can qualify for War Grave status under slightly different criteria as stipulated for each organisation. The list of organisations is different for each war and is much longer for WW2. Also, not all members of each Organisation will qualify which sometimes causes confusion.

 

Any casualty from such an Organisation who is accepted for CWGC commemoration is treated exactly the same as any military casualty and receives the standard CWGC headstone. They are listed in the War Grave Roll maintained by CWGC and which can be found online. (Note: Do not confuse them with the WW2 Civilian War Dead which CWGC also lists online. CWGC has to maintain a list of these dead from WW2 but does not care for their graves. Their names are listed in memorial books in Westminster Abbey).

 

2) Non-World War Graves

These are the graves of military personnel or civilians who do not qualify for War Grave status but whose graves CWGC maintains under agreement with another authority (eg the UK MoD) or which just happen to have been located in one of their cemeteries when they took over control of them from the military. These graves can consist of military personnel who died outside the two world war qualifying periods (even by a day), retired or discharged military personnel ('old soldiers') or, as said above, civilians who were buried in cemeteries or war plots later taken over by CWGC for maintenance (eg air raid victims were sometimes buried in local war plots).

 

CWGC has no Charter responsibility for these graves but cares for them under agreements with other authorities (mainly MoD) or without such agreement simply because not maintaining the grave would be out of keeping with the rest of the cemetery or plot. Sometimes CWGC has supplied a headstone for these graves and they have a distinctive design as the two you illustrate - a standard CWGC stone with the top corners clipped out. This signifies that the grave is not a War Grave but a Non-World War Grave.

 

Specific Non-World War pattern headstones were developed post-WW2 so a few Non-World War Graves pre-WW2 can be found with standard CWGC headstones as no other design was then available. If these are ever replaced, I presume it would be by the current Non-World War pattern. The Non-World War graves which CWGC maintains on behalf of MoD have similar Non-World War pattern stones but with a slight variation at the top. RAF stones have a wavy top but no clipped corners and army/Royal Navy stones have a wavy top with clipped corners. These stones were provided by MoD. To confuse matters further, occasionally, especially in Royal Navy cemeteries, these graves can have other design stones specific to that cemetery but are still Non-World War Graves in CWGC care.

 

I am attaching pics of the various Non-World War stone tops. Look out for them. As CWGC now cares for all MoD responsibility graves, they are seen fairly frequently. Do not confuse them with official War Graves. The names of these Non-World War casualties are recorded in CWGC's database but they are not visible to the public so will not be found online.

 

If the uploading has worked, the pics should show the three styles of Non-World War headstone. I hope that is clear but if not just shout!

 

RAF Non-World War

Army/Royal Navy Non-World War

CWGC supplied Non-World War

Edited 11 June , 2020 by Terry Denham

[fellop]

Terry,

Very many thanks for the comprehensive explanation and after a couple of readings I have understood it now. I do have one query if I may.

 

In Post 13 your first picture is a CWGC Supplied Non World War Headstone for L Holford. Now Holford is shown on the CWGC Database under Civilian Deaths and is buried at Brighton The two headstones I show [sorry not my photos] I now understand are also CWGC Supplied Non World War Headstones, these are buried in Tonbridge, but neither of these men appear on the CWGC Database. I understand in your post that Non World War Casualties are recorded on the CWGC Database but are not visible to the public thus not found online. Why then is L Holford on the database and visible to the public under and as Civilian Deaths but the two examples I show: Bishop and Churchill are not ?

 

I am not researching any of these men I am just using the pictures to illustrate my query.

Regards

Peter

[Terry Denham]

Peter

 

Read my caveat about the WW2 Civilian War Dead.

 

CWGC was given a new Charter responsibility for WW2 (but not for WW1) in that they had to record the names of Commonwealth civilians killed by enemy action or due to certain other circumstances. They only have to record the names of these casualties and have no responsibility for their graves (and don't know where they are). Their names are listed online and can be recognised as they have a 'Reporting Authority' listed rather than a 'Cemetery or Memorial'. They are not War Grave entries.

 

Holford is listed online because he was a civilian killed in an air raid and is in the WW2 Civilian War Dead Roll. You will see that he has a 'Reporting Authority' listing and is not either a War Grave or a Non-World War Grave. It just so happens that he was buried in the WW2 war plot in Brighton City Cemetery. At some point he was given a stone which looks like a CWGC supplied Non-World War stone - presumably to maintain the overall look and feel of the plot - to keep it uniform. There are other civilians in this plot with similar stones from memory. If he had been buried elsewhere, he would not have had such a stone. Presumably, then he would have had a private stone erected by relatives - or none at all.

 

This is an example of how it can become very confusing. In fact, a headstone can never be taken as absolute evidence of the grave's status. Reference must always be made to the official CWGC list online. There are private graves in existence which have copied without authority the standard CWGC stone so look like a war grave and even a number of graves with a Non-World War stone which should now have them exchanged for a War Grave stone because the casualty has only recently been accepted for commemoration by CWGC.

 

It can get very complicated and, after thirty years studying the subject, I also lose the plot on occasions!

Edited 11 June , 2020 by Terry Denham