Senegar POW camp

[Connaught Ranger]

Hi

I put up a poster recently in ehe RC chuch in Ballymena seeking information on locals who served in the Great War. Due to our recent social history the contribution of non-unionist Irishmen has been forgotten for far too long.

I was contacted by the son of John Weir (Royal Irish Fusilers) who knew that his father had been a POW. He thought that his father had been held by the turks. However using Des Blackadders superb site "Ballymena 1914-1918 Carved in Stone" I have found out that his wife had recieved a letter safter he was captured in 1914 telling her he was in Senegar camp. I have asked the son, but he knows nothing about it. John Weir died of complications related to his experiences in the early 1930's. His son is now 86 and has asked me to find out more if possible.

Where do you suggest I begin?

Many thanks

Paul

[Doug Johnson]

Paul,

Could it be Sennelager?

Doug

[Arthur J]

Paul

It would have been Sennelager camp in Germany. And if he was captured in 1914 he was part of the BEF, fighting with the 1st Bn Royal Irish Fusiliers.

In the first months of the war the 1st Bn were heavily involved in the retreat from Mons, providing rear guard most of the way. When the tide turned they were involved in the advance, before being withdrawn, and in October 1914 moving up to the French/Belgian border taking part in the attack at Meteren, which resulted in the capture of Bailleul.

All through this period - especially in the retreat a number of men were captured in the confusion. There is a good record of this in a book "Angels & Heroes" produced the Royal Irish Fusiliers Museum. This book is based on the diary of Sgt Wilson who served in the 1st Bn during this period. It is interspersed with the Battalion record. If the family want to know what John Weir was doing in this period I could not recommend a better record, (at this stage I admit I had a hand in the book as I supplied the modern photographs)

Arthur J.

[Ryegate]

Hello Paul

I only registered on this website yesterday so am also new to this, although by now you will be an 'old hand' at it.

I am really interested in your posting as I believe you may be talking about my husband's grandfather.

John Weir was my husband's grandfather and we know he served in the war and that he was a POW. We also know he never fully recovered from this experience and he did die young, in 1932 at the age of 47.

Through divorce, the families have lost contact although John Weir still has 2 sons and 2 daughters alive in Ballymena. I believe the son you refer to would be Francis as he would now be into his 80s whereas Edward, the other son, was the youngest child so would be considerably younger.

I have been researching the family for some time now and am gradually putting together bits and pieces of information I have been able to get from various websites and a researcher who has been working for me in Ireland.

I am not sure of course, if you were able to gain any further information about John Weir but I have found his name listed in a Special Edition of the Irish Times published during the period of war and listing him as a POW (the first ever reference I have been able to find about him).

I would be interested to know if you recognise any of the above as the person you did your initial posting about and if you managed to get any further information, I would be very happy if you agreed to kindly share it with me.

Best regards

PS this is a long shot I know, as your posting is dated Sept 2006 but if you are still registered with the forum then hopefully you will get this message.

[Andy Shaw]

Ryegate,

Welcome to the forum.

Do you have the service number for John Weir? there were a number of men with that name serving with The Royal Irish Fusiliers, if we could identify which one is yours, we may be able to come up with some more information

Kind Regards

Andy

[Ryegate]

Hello Andy

Thank you for your quick response re John Weir. I am afraid though, I have no information on him at all apart from personal information such as birth, marriage and death dates and the names of his children.

My husband's mum told me that John Weir (her father in law) was a POW and never really recovered from that experience. I know he died in 1932 and it was seeing Paul's posting that just seemed to be too close to what I am looking for to be a coincidence.

John Weir was from Ballymena. I have tried to search for a regiment number for him but have not found anything. I know it is much easier if you have one.

I was hoping Paul made still be registered here and would maybe see my posting as I am very curious.

Thank you

Regards

[delta]

Ryegate - Paul was last active on the Forum less than 3 days ago; I suggest you contact him and draw his attention back to this thread. The simplest way to do this is:

take your curser up tot erh top fot he page, left click on "Connuaght Ranger" and find tje "send message" link.

Then just send a short message inclduing the title of this thread in, so he knows where to look

Stephen

[Ryegate]

Ryegate - Paul was last active on the Forum less than 3 days ago; I suggest you contact him and draw his attention back to this thread. The simplest way to do this is:

take your curser up tot erh top fot he page, left click on "Connuaght Ranger" and find tje "send message" link.

Then just send a short message inclduing the title of this thread in, so he knows where to look

Stephen

Hello Stephen

Thank you so much for this advice. I would never have known how to respond directly without it!

I have now sent a messaage to Connaught Ranger and advised him of the thread so I look forward to his response.

Thank you for your help

Kind regards

[delta]

Glad you two have made contact and that it has been beneficial!

Stephen

[Ryegate]

Glad you two have made contact and that it has been beneficial!

Stephen

Thank you Stephen and thank you for your help

Regards

Maureen

[Desmond7]

I can now confirm that John Weir was from Galgorm Street. Checked back through website and find a letter from him to his wife (residing at Galgorm Street) mentioned in Observer of April 4, 1916. The letter confirms receipt of photographs from home and states he is in good health. His former occupation as a postman is also mentioned and it states he has been a pow since the 'retreat from Mons'. Royal Irish Fusiliers as his Regt. also confirmed.

Hope this takes you a stage further.

Des

[Ryegate]

I can now confirm that John Weir was from Galgorm Street. Checked back through website and find a letter from him to his wife (residing at Galgorm Street) mentioned in Observer of April 4, 1916. The letter confirms receipt of photographs from home and states he is in good health. His former occupation as a postman is also mentioned and it states he has been a pow since the 'retreat from Mons'. Royal Irish Fusiliers as his Regt. also confirmed.

Hope this takes you a stage further.

Des

Hi Desmond 7

Thank you so much. this is brilliant news! I know he was living in Springwell Street before his marriage to Mary and that she lived in Galgorm Street.

I found something on a John Weir who was a postman and I just cannot remember where I saw that. I must have discounted it as being my John Weir for some reason. Oh, how stupid of me!

Are you able to let me know where you found the letter? Was it printed in the Observer? I would love to have a copy.

Thank you for your continued help. It's great and I am so pleased

Regards

[Desmond7]

Sory - no letter - but you can see what the Observer reported on the 'Ballymena' website ... scroll through the Weekly War 1916 to the relevant date.

Hope you have more success.

Des

[Stebie9173]

As far as matching men to numbers goes:

8711 Pte. J. Weir, R. Irish Fusiliers was wounded in 1914, the report of his wounding being in the Times of 9-11-1914, under "reported from Base on 26-9-1914." Possible, but we would expect him to be reported Missing, if a POW!

Whichever way a man from the Royal Isrish Fusiliers captured in the retreat from Mons, is almost certainly from the 1st Battalion, and most likely captured fighting in 4th Division at Le Cateau on 26th August 1914.

Steve.

[Ryegate]

Thanks to Desmond 7. I have found the piece in 'Ballymena' which is where I had seen the postman bit before. For some reason I discounted it. Maybe because it was a letter home and I knew he was a POW. Naivity! I am not experienced enough at this yet to tie up the clues so thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

I am hoping this will help me in my search for more information.

Steve, thank you. I have copies of 6 medals cards that I purchased from National Archives. One of those is 8711 and I guess it is possible John Weir was wounded before he was taken prisoner. Another card is regiment No. 8377 which I thought was the right one as it is the only card marked with P of War. However, someone has already looked this up for me and this soldier was a regular which casts doubt on John Weir being a postman before enlisting.

I also have regiment No. 7735 which is marked with 'discharged' so I haven't really considered this one.

Two are for the Royal Irish Rifles so have discounted those and the last one is marked Royal Irish Fusiliers Regiment No. 29740 and Royal Irish Regiment, regiment No. 41407

Confusing this isn't it?!!

Thanks again for all the help given. I very much appreciate it.

Regards

[Stebie9173]

I don't think you can discount the "Regulars" on the basis of him being a postman pre-war.

I can only give my own research as an example (Northamptonshire) but a man with an 8000 series number in "my" regiment would have enlisted c.1906. He would then have served 7 years Active service (c.1913) and then gone onto the Reserve for another 5 years (theoretically until 1918). At that point (1913) men would have gone back to their civilian jobs with a reduced amount of pay from the Army and the obligation to be recalled to the Army if required. Of course, the Great War got in the way of these men serving their Resreve period out quietly until final discharge.

Because it was the Army's policy to keep the battalion that was serving overseas (2nd in the case of the Royal Irish Fusiliers) up to full strength at the expenses of the UK battalion (1st) most of the UK battalions were well under full strength at the outbreak of war. Thus, the Reservists were recalled on 5th August 1914 to report to their Regimental Depots. Most of the battalions of the B.E.F. therefore consisted of a high percentage of men recalled from their civilian jobs, as opposed to soldiers still serving in barracks.

In summary we therefore have:

1. 8711 Wounded 1914

2. 8377 PoW.

3. 7735 Discharged.

4. 29740/41407 later numbers. I would guess 1916 from other Regimental number research, but they all vary.

From this I would agree that 3. and 4. are unlikely, with 2. being the best bet at present.

When you say "identified as a Regular" is the context as in "serving in the Army at barracks" or "has a number indicative of a man who would have been a Regular soldier prior to the war"?

Steve.

[Ryegate]

Steve, you are so knowledgeable about this. I am impressed!

The answer to your last question is I don't know.

Arthur J a Forum member was recommended to me as an expert in the Royal Irish Fusiliers so I sent a direct message to him. He has been so kind as has everyone who has responded to my pleas for help on the Forum. He told me his 'expertise' was with another battalion but very kindly passed my message to someone who is the curator at the Fusiliers museum.

Amanda is very busy with an exhibition for the next couple of weeks but she did respond to me to say that the John Weir regiment No. 8377 was a regular soldier but that she would look more closely once her installation is behind her.

John Weir's son, my husband's father was a regular soldier so I did not discount the fact that John Weir could also have been (sons treading in the footsteps of their fathers etc.)

I guess if I had only received one medal card for John Weir I could have been more sure of the information but six was more than I expected (well, 4 if I discount the 2 for Royal Irish Rifles).

Your message tells a lot and mostly, that I must not discount any information just in case it is exactly what I have been looking for!

Thank you so much for your continued reponse and mostly, your patience with an absolute beginner!

Best regards

Maureen

[Stebie9173]

Maureen,

Having just reread my example I found that I misssed at bit to make it clear. The man in that would have gone back to his civilian job in 1913 not 1918 as I made it sound! I have inserted the year (1913) into my example to make it clearer. Sorry!

Steve.

[Desmond7]

No expert on numbers but I would hazard a half decent guess that your John was 'on the reserve' and may have been called 'back to the colours' ??

[Andy Shaw]

8377 J Weir is listed in a book about men from the 1st Battalion who served in the BEF

It mentions a listing of him 'Missing' in the Daily Mail on the 16th November 1914, but states his camp details as Limburg, 2nd Battalion, 4th Company.

He was also a Cigarette smoker, 5' 9'' in height, Boot size 9 and a Cap size of 22

[Ryegate]

Hello Steve and Desmond 7

The more you tell me the more I think I may have found my man! It is so exciting! I am a family history addict and get very excited about the least thing. Just a small find is enough to please me!

I am so pleased I found this wonderful website and even more that members have been so generous with their time and help. I wouldn't have known where to start without you all. Thank you so much.

I must tell you that Mary, John's daughter telephoned me the other day. I have never met her and through divorce, the family lost contact. I wrote to Mary and Francis Weir last year (out of the blue) to tell them I was reaseaching the family and asking if they would kindly help. I did not receive a response but as I found more information (by having a researcher in Ireland do searches for me) I kept them informed of what I had found.

In my last letter to them, I told them I was intending to look for any information on their father during the war.

Mary phoned to say they knew very little about their dad as they were very young when he died and they did not think to ask questions. She told me they were not so much interested in the family tree but would like any information about their father. Francis is around 84 (not sure how old Mary is) but it would be so nice to share some information with them and to let them know how brave he was.

I am so hoping that with your help we have found him! Fingers crossed that Private 8377 turns out to be my man!

Best regards

Maureen

[Stebie9173]

Here is 8377 J Weir, R. Irish Fusiliers listed in the Casualty List in the Times of 16-11-1914:

Certainly looks promising.

Steve.

[Doug Johnson]

Nearly all Irish prisoners were moved from other camps to Limburg towards the end of 1914 early 1915 as potential recruits. He could have been at Senne before being moved or could have been at Limburg and moved to Senne later.

Doug

Forgot to mention that the battalion and company could be prisoner related and not his regiment.

[Stebie9173]

I think we agree that both 8711 J. Weir and 8377 J. Weir were definitely 1st Battalion Royal Irish Fusiliers as both are recorded as casualties (8711 wounded, and 8377 Missing) before the 2nd Battalion arrived in France in December 1914.

Just a matter of which one. On present evidence, 8377 is by far the most likely.

I assume both Cards for 8711 and 8377 have a date around 23rd August 1914 as "Qualifying date" i.e. the date that they arrived in France.

Do the other two state dates?

I would expect that the 29740 card shows neither a 1914 or a 1914-15 Star entry/date.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Just to provide an estimated date of enlistment, I have had a quick look at the WO364 "Pension" Records on Ancestry.

8476 Thomas Best, of Antrim enlisted into the Royal Irish Fusiliers at Armagh on 8th July 1904. So, 8377 would have possibly been earlier in 1904, and 8711 in 1905/1906.

Steve.