Steven Broomfield Posted 12 May , 2006 Share Posted 12 May , 2006 But would it have had Great War honours if awarded in (say) the 20's? There may well have been a stock of them knocking about, and I don't know what sort of official work was done on battle honours, but ours didn't come out till relatively late, surely? Wonder if it was awarded to an officer from the Occupation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 12 May , 2006 Share Posted 12 May , 2006 Wonder if it was awarded to an officer from the Occupation Sure and the Brit had to wear the award like a neckless, specially when crossing the channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 12 May , 2006 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2006 That wasn't the only reason I thought it was pre WW1, it just 'feels' older, if you know what I mean. I know its been in the ground (supposedly) so it won't be in perfect nick, but it really does feel older than WW1. Of course, thats nothing to go on. I guess an officer could have been given the plaque, and was subsequently dumped in the garden during a move or something and forgot about. Baz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 12 May , 2006 Share Posted 12 May , 2006 First of all I am sure that the plaques were all cast well before the Great War. The stock that seems to have been distributed after it ended must have been in store somewhere whilst the regiment was away frighting. Freiherr von Sparr was apparently the first field marshal from Brandenburg. The Westphalian link only dates to 1816; it was raised originally in 1813 from East Prussian reserve regiments during the period when Prussia rose up against foreign domination. It celebrated its centenary on 29 June 1913 in its garrison town of Mulheim. Interestingly it was then called 'am Rhein', rather than 'an der Ruhr'. Of course this part of Germany, though clearly now part of North Rhine Westphalia,was then still squarely Prussia. The whole question needs more work, so we shall have to see what can be done through German contacts. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 12 May , 2006 Share Posted 12 May , 2006 Can we see a detail picture from the backside? Was it attached to some wall? Any hangers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 12 May , 2006 Share Posted 12 May , 2006 Jack, 'et geit' is Plattdeutsch (Low German) for 'es geht'. 'Hacke tau!' is properly two words, but has spawned the noun 'ein Hacketau' (meaning a cry of 'Hacke tau!'), rather as 'Thank you!' has grown the noun 'a thankyou'. As you say, 'ein Hacketauer' is a member of the Regiment and collectively they were 'die Hacketäuer'. Linguistically, at least, the expression is consistent with the Napoleonic era. But that's not to say that it doesn't echo something from an earlier time, conveyed by oral tradition. regards Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 12 May , 2006 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2006 Sorry egbert, didn't think to take a pic of the reverse. Although I can tell you that the only sign of a hanging arrangement are the two bolt(?) holes which you just make out in the pictures on post 1. The plaque is convex, the middle part being about 4 inches deep, the edge about an inch. The reverse is hollow if you get what I mean, ie its not a solid casting. I have no idea how they suspended it. Perhaps mounted to a backing slab and mounted into a wall? I'll try and get some pics of the reverse on Monday if anyone thinks it will help. By the way, thanks everyone for all their help on this. Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 12 May , 2006 Share Posted 12 May , 2006 By the way, thanks everyone for all their help on this. Barrie This has been intriguing - great fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 12 May , 2006 Share Posted 12 May , 2006 I think of a memorial plaque like this one. It is obviously attached to the walls of the remnants of Fort I in Friedenspark of southern Koeln (Cologne) and says "Hacke-Tau Vom 3.Westfaelischen Infanterie Regiment Nr 16 Freiherr von Sparr Starben heldenmuetig Fuer Ihr Vaterland 103 Offiziere 2871 Unteroffiziere Und Mannschaften" picture link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 12 May , 2006 Share Posted 12 May , 2006 Fort I was dedicated a memorial park in 1926. Today it is an adventure playground This link shows more memorial plaques at the walls. Could be that the discussed round plaque has a connection with this place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 12 May , 2006 Share Posted 12 May , 2006 Thanks for posting the Friedenspark pic Egbert. Shame about the graffitti. The figure of a soldier using his musket as a club tends to confirm the story about the battle of Gross Beeren, but could, of course, simply be inspired by the same legend. Interesting to see yet another variant - this time HACKE-TAU. Despite links with Westphalia and Mülheim, IR 16 is most associated with Cologne, so the Friedenspark is an appropriate place for them to be commemorated. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 12 May , 2006 Share Posted 12 May , 2006 Mick, Muelheim is in fact some 3 km northeast of Koeln downtown -right side of the river; today it is a quarter/district of Koeln (Cologne ) and in fact called "Koeln-Muelheim". So Muelheim was always situated at the very banks of the River Rhine and not, as Jack suggested at the banks of River Ruhr -thats another Muelheim has nothing to do with IR 16 "Hacketau" P.S. When I return to Cologne in 5 months i will have a closer look at the Friedenspark and Fort I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 13 May , 2006 Share Posted 13 May , 2006 Thanks again Egbert. I knew IR 16 was associated with Cologne rather than Mülheim an der Ruhr, but didn't know how to resolve that confusion politely. The map showing Hacketauerstraße and Von-Sparr-Straße in Köln-Mülheim puts the issue neatly beyond dispute. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 13 May , 2006 Share Posted 13 May , 2006 Well you live and learn and I for one have picked up several interesting points from this thread, including the Mulheim by Cologne! It is just as well that the memorial plaque was not in or near Berlin. If it still existed, vandals would probably have sprayed it with the paint. Moltke up by the Victory Pillar there has amost been worn away by endlessly repeated cleaning off of thrown or sprayed paint. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 16 February , 2009 Share Posted 16 February , 2009 Barrie, I believe the mystery of the plaque is solved. I researched the IR 16 'Hacketau' barracks recently. The missing link w/r to the Scottish troops and thus the question of your museum curator is: New Zealand and Scottish troops moved into Cologne 5.12.1918 and occupied the Hacketau Kaserne from 1919 until 1926, using it as their very own barracks. So the plaque 100% was taken as a souvenier when the Scots left the Rhineland , Cologne and the Hacketau barracks in particular, returning to UK. In case your curator is intersted in a 40 page essay about the history of the Hacketau barracks, here is the full title: Rechtsrheinisches Köln, Jahrbuch für Geschichte und Landeskunde, Band 12, Köln 1986. Any more details wanted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 16 February , 2009 Share Posted 16 February , 2009 Hacketau= Low German from Westphalia and comes from "Hacke tou, Brouer, et geit för't Vaterland" Brother slam shut/strike hard, the fatherland is at stake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 14 August , 2016 Share Posted 14 August , 2016 ...and the plaque from Dokumentenforum.de Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 14 August , 2016 Share Posted 14 August , 2016 Thanks, Egbert, for reminding us of an interesting thread from a decade ago. I wonder what eventually became of the plaque in the opening post. It's always nice to look back on old threads where Pals worked together to tease out the elements of a story, and I remember this one with particular fondness because it dates from the first few months of my membership of the forum, when I was just 'getting to know' you and Jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 14 August , 2016 Share Posted 14 August , 2016 (edited) Right Mick, I would be curious as well what happened to the "gully cover". You woke up my curiosity. Maybe Barrie the thread originator reads this post and could tell us? P.S. The Friedenspark walls with all the plaques have all been cleaned of graffity and looks well nowadays Edited 14 August , 2016 by egbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 26 August , 2016 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2016 Thanks for the message regarding this old thread, Egbert. I confess I had forgotten all about this thread, and the plaque in question. I don't work with that particular museum service anymore (I must have actually moved shortly after my previous last post in the thread) so I can't say for sure what has happened to the plaque over the last ten years. I'm pretty sure that the curator who showed it to me in the first instance has also moved on from the museum. I do, however, know a few of the curators who currently work there, and I will drop them an email now with a link to this thread. Perhaps one of them will be able to give us an update as to its whereabouts. Some fantastic detective work from everyone in this thread; thanks for the contributions and please accept my apologies for taking 10 years to come back and say thank you! Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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