Guest DianeHatwell Posted 13 November , 2005 Share Posted 13 November , 2005 I am looking to track Daniel Percival Ratcliffe who was a RWF for part of World War 1. In the 6 January 1917 gazette he is listed for his MM, 45640 Pte Ratcliffe, in RWF. After that he went to Sherwood Foresters. I would like to know where he was when he got his MM, but need to know batallion. Dont even know how to start! Any clues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 13 November , 2005 Share Posted 13 November , 2005 This is a difficult one. The acknowledged expert on RWF gallantry confirms your man's details but does not know which battalion, or even in which theatre of war. I hardly like to suggest this, but the hard slog throughEVERY Battalion War Diary is my only suggestion ..... most RWF WDs log awards to all ranks and the action for which awarded. Complete set at National Archive, duplicate but typescript set at the Regimental Museum. But don't expect to get anyone to do it for you: I am talking several days hard reading with no certainty of a result. Even I would shrink from the task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 13 November , 2005 Share Posted 13 November , 2005 Diane, I've posted this on my MMs lookup Topic: This one has his Military Medal on it. All medal cards from series WO372/23 have either Military Medal info, Distinguished Conduct Medal info or info on Women's Service Medals. It still won't show a citation, though. Description Medal card of Ratcliffe, D P Corps Regiment No Rank Royal Welsh Fusiliers 45640 Private Date 1914-1920 Catalogue reference WO 372/23 Dept Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies Series War Office: Service Medal and Award Rolls Index, First World War Piece Women's Services, Distinguished Conduct Medals and Military Medals http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...esultcount=1634 The vast majority of MM cards will give an exact unit. If you look at these results you will see there are two medal cards: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...=1&mediaarray=* Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DianeHatwell Posted 13 November , 2005 Share Posted 13 November , 2005 langleybaston thanks for that, I had a horrible feeling that that was going to be the answer, but i will put it on my list for things to do at the national archives. I thought it was best to ask before even thinking about it. I am in australia, so it wont be this week! on my wish list Diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DianeHatwell Posted 13 November , 2005 Share Posted 13 November , 2005 Sorry, Stebie, I am hopelessly lost, cant find the right place in the NA, cant find the MM lookup thing, just hopeless. I got his first medal card, cant find the MM one. could you please help again? diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 13 November , 2005 Share Posted 13 November , 2005 Oh blow! My link didn't move across right... Use this link to download his Medal Card for the MM in the same way that you would have done for his Service Medals. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...&resultcount=34 Click the add to shopping and go through and pay your £3.50 on your credit card (If you wan't too!) This will give you a medal card sheet in PDF form of 6 cards with Daniel's MM card on it. I'm sure it will state his unit. Steve. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DianeHatwell Posted 13 November , 2005 Share Posted 13 November , 2005 Yee Hah Steve, thanks for that, the first links didnt take me where i needed to go. I have now got 19th batallion, so am making huge progress (for me). there are still so many unanswered questions, but great war forum is wonderful have a great day thanks again Diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 13 November , 2005 Share Posted 13 November , 2005 The 19th were in 40th Division for most of the War. http://www.1914-1918.net/rwf.htm http://www.1914-1918.net/40div.htm Due to the manpower shortage in early 1918, infantry brigades were reduced from 4 battalions to 3 with the "junior" battalion being disbanded. This looks like the fate of the 19th. It is possible that was the time he transferred to the Sherwood Foresters. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DianeHatwell Posted 14 November , 2005 Share Posted 14 November , 2005 Thanks again Steve. Are you telling me that Percy was probably a small man? Not surprising, he was an acrobat before joining the army, and my nanna (to whom he was married) was only little. I am on a steep learning curve here. i notice several Beebys at the bottom of your posts, are you a Beeby? I ask because where i used to live there were a family of Beebes, and I had never heard the name apart from them, that was in the south west of Western Australia. again, thank you so much Diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 14 November , 2005 Share Posted 14 November , 2005 Yes I am a Beeby. Beebe is an alternate spelling. The name Beeby is supposed to date back to a couple of Norman Knights Thomas & Edward (?) de Beebe which is a small village to the east of Leicester. It is a quite common name in Northamptonshire, Leicestershire and Cumbria. I have a couple of Beeby relatives in America, but none in Australia to my knowledge. The alternative Beebe spelling goes way back and I haven't found an instance of it in my family tree yet. Back on subject, Bantam units were generally short men (under 5'2", I think), though men were generally shorter back then. The Bantam units would have had other men of "Regulation" height in them, so not definitely a short man, but your description of him as an acrobat would lend credence to the idea. Just out of curiousity what unit of the Sherwood Foresters did he go to? We have some good Notts & Derby Regiment experts here. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 14 November , 2005 Share Posted 14 November , 2005 I hadn't thought of the MICs, so, I apologise. However, I can not see where the Bantam's idea came into the thread. In any case, recruiting Bantam's had been more or less dropped soon after the Somme, as being a stupid idea, which they were. 5' 3" was the minimum for line infantry for most of the war. The N&D bantams were 15th. I wrote the battalion history, so I do have a rational basis for believing the idea of herding titches into a battalion, as opposed to merging them into a 'normal' battalion, was ludicrous, wasteful and downright cruel. Oh, and by the way, I am a titch too. And I am glad progress has been made despite my pessimism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DianeHatwell Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 Thanks yet again, gentlemen. my Percy went to the 10th battallion Sherwood Foresters. He was an Oldham boy, but lived in London and apparently worked in a brewery before joining up. He is buried in Auchon Villers, although what i have read suggests that there was not much fighting there as late as june 1918 when he died. in the cemetery there are several graves from 7-8th june of that year. interestingly there are also about 8 graves in the public cemetery that are the same design as the war cemetery graves, but a different sort of stone. but an amazing part of the world, we managed to visit briefly last year, hoping to get back for a longer visit in a couple of years when work is less of a priority. thanks again diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 Langley, The Bantams suggestion came in because the 19th SWB (not the 10th N&D) were originally designated as a Bantam unit. Since, Diane knew Daniel was a small man she made the connection that he may have joined when it was taking in men under regulation height as a matter of procedure. Steve. EDIT: As LB points out below, please read RWF for SWB, above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 dump a dump a dido ........ I get it now ............... no I don't, 19SWB not mentioned before! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 Langley, It's a bit all over.... Post 1 - Dianne looking for Battalion of SWB where MM won. Post 3 - I post link to MIC for MM. Post 5 - Dianne posts saying she can't download. Post 6 - Mister Stupid (me) realises his link doesn't work. Posts new link. Post 7 - Dianne has downloaded MIC and found that it states 19th SWB. Post 8 - I post link to SWB page. Post 9 - Dianne reads that the 19th were a Bantam unit. Voila!! Steve. EDIT: As LB points out below, please read RWF for SWB, above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 oh well it is Monday: but first post on my screen says RWF ..... lets just titoe away from this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 Oops! Well my first posts were right... I just dropped the ball today!!! I typed RWF not SWB, I'm sure I did! (Yer' 'onor) If only the Topic wasn't entitled "Royal Welch Fusiliers", eh? Can I go home yet? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 but if it had not been RWF Iwould not have opened it ...... the only subjects that get me going are [in no particular order]: RWF, sex, food, red wine, RWF, sex, RWF, sex as Harold Steptoe said 'you dairty old man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DianeHatwell Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 sorry guys, didnt mean to start difficulties! diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 It's alright, Dianne. Just friendly banter. Just need to get my eyes (or my head examined) over making the RWF to SWB error... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 22 November , 2005 Share Posted 22 November , 2005 no love lost between those regiments, or their supporters, which explains Captain Grumpy's testy reaction, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DianeHatwell Posted 24 November , 2005 Share Posted 24 November , 2005 Dare i ask one more piece of information please gentlemen? We have a photo of Percy, and according to my uncle he is wearing the ribbon for his MM (i can see a ribbon, but am not savvy enough to know what it is). According to uncle, he can tell what the cap badge is. I am sure he is right if you know what you are looking at, but i am just not in his league. Dad says he said Middlesex Regiment. It is maybe not as clear in the scanned photo, but could you hazard an opinion for me please. dare i say they might be prince of wales feathers (at risk of being drummed out) thanks again Diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 24 November , 2005 Share Posted 24 November , 2005 Looks like Royal Welsh Fusiliers, Diane. http://www.militarybadges.org.uk/badges/infan23.htm http://www.militarybadges.org.uk/badges/infindex.htm The shoulder badge looks like a short "initials type" one . e.g. RWF. And that certainly looks like an MM ribbon. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DianeHatwell Posted 25 November , 2005 Share Posted 25 November , 2005 thanks yet again Steve, you are making this very easy for me. What with the stuff i am reading on the site about how the army is made up, i am starting to understand. even helped someone else with their medal index cards last night! nice to know your expertise is getting spread far and wide. thanks so much Diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DianeHatwell Posted 3 December , 2005 Share Posted 3 December , 2005 Gentlemen, you have proved so helpful, am i allowed to ask a question that doesnt relate to WW1 or will my computer melt down? I will risk it, since it involves Wales. there is a family rumour that my great grandmother was born on a boat on the way to India in 1881, and that her father, William Probert, from Cardiff, may have been involved with the army. Is that likely to have been South Wales Borderers? Is there a way to find out if he is listed as serving with them? thanks Diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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