New Ulster 36th painting

[markinbelfast]

anyone needing a clearer scan get intouch!

[Desmond7]

It's huge .. I take it that's the yard in the background?

Where is it?

[markinbelfast]

up the newtownards road near dundonald....there a better one facing WMcF V.C's house...will snap later this week....far better than the wooly faced men ones!

[swizz]

This is a big one - did you notice the sandbagged 'trench' area to the right hand side???

Swizz

[kaisersoffensive]

Hello Mark

Very impressive!

Do we know who was responsible,assuming it was one mans comission?

Would love a clearer scan.

Regards,

Bob bobnorman@fsmail.net

[markinbelfast]

heres further away to show the sand bags! and scale

[swizz]

Nice photo for showing scale! The walls must be a relatively new development - they weren't there when I took a few photos up there a while back.

[iain mchenry]

Hi Mark,

I was in Belfast last week for a couple of days with my fiance. She spotted an excellent 36th Ulster Div memorial just off the top of the Castlereagh Rd. I will ask her to scan it in.

Regards

Iain

[iain mchenry]

Here it is:

[Cotswold]

I was particularly impressed with the telegram at the bottom right of the mural, which is a copy of that received by Billy McFadzean's mother.

Kind Regards,

Donna

[shinglma]

Iain

I took this photo in the same vicinity in June 2004. From memory I seem to think was in the Castlereagh Road area. Looking at the street furniture (gate, railings etc) I even wonder if it was an earlier mural on the same wall.

Then again the roof line does not appear right. Perhaps the gate, railings etc are common to all these murals.

Any thoughts?

kind regards

Mike

[swizz]

The VC winners mural is in the Cregagh estate, facing towards the Cregagh Road, albeit at quite a distance from it. I quite like it - it replaced something a bit more controversial...

As for the other one near the Castlereagh Road, its pretty good - certainly better than the one it replaced - but I have to take issue with the fact that the McFadzean telegram is addressed to William McFadzean in 'NI', which of course did not exist in 1916. Its just a small point but it kind of irritates me for some reason!

[Cotswold]

Hi Mike,

I dont think they are the same memorial, as you say the buildings look different. When we visited the mural it appeared that the mural formed a backdrop for a "Memorial Garden" for the men of the 36th. If you look carefully at the bottom center of the mural there is a headstone. I have a much clearer photo of it and will scan it later.

Best regards

Iain

[Desmond7]

I'm caught between a rock and a hard place on this.

I have to say that I have VERY mixed feelings about the murals.

One part of me admires the fact that people have taken the time and effort to paint these huge scenes. Another part of me is only too well aware that modern day paramilitaries have hi-jacked the name of the original Ulster Volunteers who provided most of the manpower of the ORIGINAL 36th.

When these murals stand alone without any modern paramilitary trappings, I can applaud the fact that people still care enough to remember men from their local communities who joined the British army to fight for what they believed was RIGHT AT THAT TIME ... i.e. King, Country and Empire.

However, there is a clear difference between the UVF of the 1914 era and the drug dealing, ciggie smuggling, blackmailing, counterfeiting gun gangs who have grown out of our present troubles.

The men of 1914 were a vastly different breed. Let's not kid ourselves that they were angels ... they were Ulster Prods who saw themselves as British by birthright and who were determined to remain so. And yes, in modern terms they can be accused of religious bigotry .. what's new in Ireland? As I've said before, that's the way IT WAS in Ireland north and south at that time and that should always be remembered.

BUT they were not engaged in Goodfellas style criminality and ethnic cleansing which has been a hallmark of both so-called 'Loyalist' and Republican paramilitary organisations in recent times.

I'm fortunate to live in my nice middle class area with my nice middle class salary and my nice middle class job. I don't have to live in a sectarian interface which has high levels of deprivation which have to be seen to be believed.

Mark has said earlier that these are much better than the paintings of the 'hairy faced men' .. and by that I take it he means the moustachioed types who everyone who lived in Ulster throughout the troubles will be all too familiar. I agree with him entirely.

People who live here will probably admit they have the same mixed feelings about this. This is verging into 'modern' so I'll end it here. Hope you know what I mean.

Proud to be what I am and where I'm from ... but all too aware of problems

[iain mchenry]

Des,

I agree with you. I saw a number of murals dedicated to the 36th that had been "Hijacked" by modern day paramilitary groups. But the mural above impressed me a lot. If this mural goes some way to playing a part in helping people remember the sacrifices of the 36th Div, then i think it has been successful.

Regards

Iain

[Desmond7]

I'd also like to say that the new murals featuring everything from the Titanic to Geordie Best etc etc are a major step in the right direction.

Like the bonfire builders who perform feats of engineering construction which Brunel would be proud of ... if the wall artists had put half the effort into their schooldays they would probably be internationally famous graphic designers by now!!

[Eddie Bosano-Andrews]

Des

I'll try and tread lightly.

I agree that you are right to have mixed feelings about these murals.

To the Unionist community in the North these are not just memorials they are loaded with a political and cultural significance that would not be associated with such things in the UK.

To a Nationalist they will also have a different meaning (I'm married into a nationalist Irish speaking family with Northern origins living just below the border).

However things are changing and hopefully as both communities start to become more aware of each others traditions, we can maybe look at these murals for what they are i.e folk art expressing the memories and values of one community as they move in the Georgie Best etc direction.

I am glad to see that these particular murals are concentrating purely on the Somme and not trying to link the 36th to the current so called UVF.

What chance a 16th Division mural ? - you never know !.

Is that an Ulster Fry in your avatar mmm.....

Good luck

[Billy Bittles]

Take a look HERE to see lots of pics of these kind of murals around Northern Ireland

[markinbelfast]

While on the subject...here's his church memorial.

[Billy Bittles]

No problem Bruce. Its a site that I built and maintain. click Here for more info on Billy McFadzean. Have your sound turned up to hear a song that was written about him too.

[paullaw1155]

Thanks for the links Billy,

Is there any way that i can save the song about Billy to my hard drive????.

Also a querie some one may be able to answer????.

I remember reading somwhere that the British goverment at the time were worried about Soldiers/Volunteers from Northern Ireland becoming familiar with weapons and tactics,( They may apply them against Britain on the return from the war, Home rule) Consequently the casualties they suffered did not cause as great a concern to the British goverment as they might have???

I may be wide off the mark,but a friend at work also mentioned the same sketchy thoughts.

Cheers

Paul

[Desmond7]

Paul - re returning soldiers etc.

I think you will find that quote in more than a few books. A myth ..

Along the same lines as 'the English always used the Scots/Welsh/Canadians/Aussies etc when they knew the casualties would be high...'

I'm sure you've heard that one!

I've lived in NI all my life and I've only heard one other person making such a comment. Just my thoughts.

Des

[Max]

Regardless of political or community significance that the murals that Mark has highlighted here have, it cannot be denied that they are magnificent pieces of art. I don't know if I would want to live opposite one though.

Andy

[John_Hartley]

I hope I'm not being overly naive here (although I suspect I am), but I've got a couple of questions. If I'm treading on very thin ice, I apologise and will delete if needed.

I often seen the murals on TV and have admired the propaganda. But I'm interested in knowing how they come about. Are the artists doing this "for art's sake" or are they likely to be paid by, shall we say, some community group or another. Some are clearly very talented artists (see piccies above) and should be getting paid by someone.

Similarly, do residents volunteer to loan their wall for a mural or is there some different element of "volunteering" (if you get my drift - there being some folk it's difficult to say "no" to).

John

(PS: Billy B - good to see you back posting)

[Desmond7]

OK ... I'll have a go.

First of all .. context:

Remember we are talking about a city where some people to this VERY DAY insert 'In Memoriam' notices in newspapers to ancestors who died on 1st July. FACT .. I bet Mark can provide forum with copies of such notices!

The artists to my knowledge are usually drawn from within the community. I would say most if not all do it on a voluntary basis.

They may/may not be associated with/members of community groups.

They may also be associated with/members of various loyalist organisations.

Permission ... in working class loyalist areas such murals would be seen as a common sense of identity/expression of community defiance/solidarity etc.

They would .. in the main ... appear in 'public sector' housing areas and in the cases I know of would be painted with permission of householders. Whether these householders feel they are under pressure? ... I'm sure they do in some cases.

It should also be noted that many murals are actually painted onto boards and then bolted to walls. Thus the structure of the actual public sector property is not defaced as such.

Des