Muerrisch Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 I accept that Red light knocking shops existed for the men. But is there evidence, contemporary evidence, for officers bordellos bearing a Blue light? Did places like La Poupee in Poperinghe actually advertise with a blue light? Or was the whole thing 'word of mouth' for the officers? One of my 2RWF subalterns was killed in action post syphillis and gonorrhea, so he was a customer somewhere I suppose. Can any Pals quote from contemporary accounts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Most towns behind the lines provided brothels. The ‘Red Light’ establishments were for the rude soldiery while ‘Blue Light’ houses were for officers. They were licensed by the French Government and monitored both by the BEF and the local authorities who were very effective. The actual VD rate for those in France was lower by a significant percentage than that in the United Kingdom and the cases identified in France in most cases had contracted the disease back home. Robert Graves has a passage in ‘Goodbye to All That’ in which he describes a scene he witnessed in the Rue Sadi Carnot. in Bethune. ‘I had seen a queue of a hundred and fifty men waiting outside the door, each to have his short turn with one of the three women in the house. My servant, who had stood in the queue, told me that the charge was ten francs a man. Each woman served nearly a battalion of men every week for as long as she lasted. According to the Assistant Provost-Marshal, three weeks was the usual limit: ‘after which she retired on her earnings, pale but proud.’ Extract from forthcoming book on the Poplars, 17th Londons. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markinbelfast Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 I'm in Amsterdam at the minute an believe me the red and blue lights are still operating though those that try the blue lights are in for a little extra!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 13 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Good one .............. come away before you get caught, or you catch something ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 I accept that Red light knocking shops existed for the men. But is there evidence, contemporary evidence, for officers bordellos bearing a Blue light? WHy are they called "knocking shops"? Anyone know the origin? Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Robbie Try getting through the door without knocking!! Getting out is a different matter. Roop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Roop, I don't think they'd let girls in, do you? Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Robbie, so long as youve got money they let allsorts in, by what Im told Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Mmmnnn. I've been to Amsterdam and the red light district seems to be spread out all over the city. On a canal cruise a couple of years ago I was struck by the number of "ladies" advertising their "wares" in the windows of houses/flats along the canal front. Didn't see any guys, however. Robbie (a girl) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Mmmnnn. I've been to Amsterdam and the red light district seems to be spread out all over the city. On a canal cruise a couple of years ago I was struck by the number of "ladies" advertising their "wares" in the windows of houses/flats along the canal front. Didn't see any guys, however. Robbie (a girl) Gee Robbie, Are you seriously a girl!!!??? Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Isn't there are scene in 'Anzacs' where Paul Hogan and one of his offsiders try and get into a 'Blue Light'? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Isn't there are scene in 'Anzacs' where Paul Hogan and one of his offsiders try and get into a 'Blue Light'? Tim indeed and they hire it because pat cleary (paul hogan) has a lot of money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Mmmnnn. I've been to Amsterdam and the red light district seems to be spread out all over the city. On a canal cruise a couple of years ago I was struck by the number of "ladies" advertising their "wares" in the windows of houses/flats along the canal front. Didn't see any guys, however. Robbie (a girl) Gee Robbie, Are you seriously a girl!!!??? Tim D Most definitely..I came out several weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Isn't there are scene in 'Anzacs' where Paul Hogan and one of his offsiders try and get into a 'Blue Light'? In AUstralia "Blue Light" refers to discos for teenagers run by the Police. My girls used to go to them. Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Robbie Partridges Dictionary of Historical Slang, suggests that the word knock in the context of this thread, may derive from the late 16th to 18th century word nock, for female putend. If you want an account of a night out in a WW1 brothel, read War is War by Ex- Private X. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 mmmnnn..thanks Terry but I might give that one a miss! Now if I was a bloke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 14 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 14 December , 2004 come on folks: could someone give me a serious answer to a serious question: is there any hard EVIDENCE for officer's brothels and/ or blue lights? Just concentrate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 14 December , 2004 Share Posted 14 December , 2004 come on folks: could someone give me a serious answer to a serious question: is there any hard EVIDENCE for officer's brothels and/ or blue lights? Just concentrate! From memory there is mention of one in the Town Major of Poperinghe's War Diary at TNA. One often also sees references to such places in Divisional ADMS War Diaries, as they are obviously worried about the spread of VD. I recall one in the village of Ville-sur-Ancre was particularly bad in this respect and closed down by the army during the Somme offensive. Many veterans I knew visited these places, and were happy to talk about them. However, I never managed to get an ex-officer to discuss the matter. We were both probably too gentlemanly to approach the matter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryb95 Posted 14 December , 2004 Share Posted 14 December , 2004 From RO'S Part II 2/11 bn 1939 PREVENTION OF V.D. Pending the construction of a permenent building at the Camp entrance a Blue Light depot is being established temporarily in A.A.M,/C Lines. Men will, be notified that preventative treatment may be obtained there on return from leave. Terry West Aust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 14 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 14 December , 2004 But surely in that context the Blue light place is not for, well, er, knocking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 14 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 14 December , 2004 come on folks: could someone give me a serious answer to a serious question: is there any hard EVIDENCE for officer's brothels and/ or blue lights? Just concentrate! From memory there is mention of one in the Town Major of Poperinghe's War Diary at TNA. One often also sees references to such places in Divisional ADMS War Diaries, as they are obviously worried about the spread of VD. I recall one in the village of Ville-sur-Ancre was particularly bad in this respect and closed down by the army during the Somme offensive. Many veterans I knew visited these places, and were happy to talk about them. However, I never managed to get an ex-officer to discuss the matter. We were both probably too gentlemanly to approach the matter... Where on earth do I uncover a town major's diary? Are they a separate classs please. Not my area at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frillidan Posted 19 December , 2004 Share Posted 19 December , 2004 Hi, all - Not sure if this helps, but John Ellis does "officially" mention the blue light establishments in Eye-Deep in Hell. From what I've heard, the fellow is fairly well respected as being true to fact - no footnotes, though, and no real bibliography, so I have no trace to the primary document where he might have gotten the info. He does, however, mention that there are records of officers having to pay a certain sum of money for every day they spent in hospital while suffering from V.D. (2s. 6d.), which would prove that officers probably did visit brothels, or else hung about with somewhat loose women. Just judging by the times, I think the average officer would be fairly appalled at the prospect of hanging about in a brothel with the ranks. I read an anecdote once wherein an independently wealthy gentleman ranker sat down to eat at a restaurant where officers were present - even being of the same social class, he was snubbed for being a mere private daring to mingle with men of a higher rank. Therefore, we know that officers did in fact suffer from V.D., and we can perhaps assume this to be the result of a visit to some sort of brothel. We know that the classes were divided enough to provoke real animosity if social barriers were breached, and so I suppose there would have to be some sort of distinction between brothels for officers and Other Ranks. And if the Other Ranks had a red light, then why not give the officers a blue one? Maybe this helped, and maybe it didn't...maybe there are huge gaps in my knowledge. I do tend to generalize. Ah well. Later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryb95 Posted 20 December , 2004 Share Posted 20 December , 2004 Blue Light A prophylactic establishment. World War I Australian. Attested here and in Digger Dialects in this form. Probably an abbreviation of ‘blue light clinic’ meaning ‘a venereal disease clinic’, and related to ‘blue light outfit’ an ‘anti-VD kit supplied to armed services’. attested in Green and Partridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryb95 Posted 20 December , 2004 Share Posted 20 December , 2004 There is a close connection between war, sex and venereal disease, and for that reason the most interesting information about measures used for VD control comes from the military literature. In response to the alarming rate of VD in the British Army and Navy, a committee in 1862 recommended that prostitutes at garrison and sea port-towns be induced to present themselves for periodic examination and treatment in a Lock hospital[3] if necessary; and that soldiers be punished, not for contracting disease, but for concealing it. The first Contagious Diseases Act (1864) required that a woman had to be suspected not only of being a prostitute but also diseased before examination was compulsory. In the Second Act of 1866 the mere fact of being suspected of being a prostitute was enough to justify examination. In 1869 Josephine Butler organised the Ladies National Association for the repeal of the Acts, on the grounds that (a) prostitutes were subjects of the Queen and in possession of certain constitutional rights, and ( public health would not be improved by making them alone, of all British subjects, liable to arbitrary arrest, examination and detention. With the support of thousands of women (including Florence Nightingale) the acts were repealed: they had been proven ineffective in the reduction of VD anyway. The objections to the use of compulsory HIV testing are very reminiscent of this episode. At the outbreak of the first World War a prophylactic measure was already known : Metchinkoff had shown that calomel salve prevented inoculation syphilis in chimpanzees, and Neisser had shown that silver salts were effective against the gonococcus. Therefore, prophylaxis consisted of men reporting to stations at their barracks, marked by a blue light, as soon as possible after sexual exposure to have the urethra irrigated with argynol and potassium permanganate, and to have Calomel salve applied externally. There were "Blue Light" depots at every barracks and at Australia House in London. Later, soldiers going on weekend leave were issued with little prophylactic packs called "Blue Lights" designed for self-administration of the above regime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2004 THREAD STARTERS SUMMARY of these excellent contributions. Blue light existed, but was NOT a sign for Officers' brothel, but was a place where one could pick up prophylactic supplies. Many Officers used prostitutes, some caught VD, but they needed to be, and could afford to be, discreet, and would therefore favour nondescript frontages whose nature would pass by word of mouth. Now, can anyone shoot this down please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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