12th (Bermondsey) Service Bn East Surrey Regiment - book

[Jim Hastings]

Good morning all,

Just wondered if any forum members have a copy of "The History of the 12th (Bermondsey) Battalion East Surrey Regiment" by Aston and Duggan? I would like to know if it lists Bn members and, more importantly, where they were from in SE London? Reason I'm interested is because there are many Croydon men listed on the CWGC site linked to this Bn (third most popular after the Regular Bns) and I was wondering if the book provides evidence for active recruiting in Croydon for it - I understand there was a 'Wake Up South London' march with the 11th RWKs. A lot of Croydon men fell with the 22nd (Bermondsey) Londons too, and this made me wonder how far 'Bermondsey' recruiting spread?

I need to get to the Croydon and Surrey History centres to dig deeper, but I find it hard to believe that with so many locally surrounding Boroughs and mayors championing the raising of Pals Bns - such as the 12th ES, 11th RWK (Lewisham), 13th ES (Wandsworth), 10th Queens (Battersea) and 190 Bde RFA (Wimbledon) - areas with existing TF units already - that Croydon did not do the same. My thoughts are, looking at the casualty figures for 12th ES that maybe a 'Croydon Pals' platoon/company/sub unit was part of 12th ES?

Anyone who has a copy and could have a quick look for me please, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Many thanks

Jim

[Perth Digger]

Jim

I've had a quick skim through the pages on recruitment and can find no mention of Croydon or of a Croydon platoon. Recruitment for the service infantry battalions in South London in 1915 did not seem to be confined to one's own area. The 11/RWK had a number enlisting with Croydon or Penge or Anerley addresses (some made up, I've found). Also, although in the end the 11th had a majority of men attesting in Lewisham, there were at least 40% attesting from along the Old Kent Road, from Lambeth to Greenwich. They had many from Southwark and a very large number from Deptford, especially in the first few weeks. If so many of the Deptford men had not deserted/absconded, one might have better described the battalion as the 11th (Lewisham and Old Kent Road) Bn, RWK! The big march you mentioned did not go further than Lewisham to the west (?). On the other hand, Aston and Duggan do say that they picked up many recruits while out on route marches, so maybe they went to Croydon now and again!

Hope this helps.

Mike

[Jim Hastings]

Thanks Mike,

I did read a primary source once from an Anerley man who with friends were taxied down to Bromley to enlist in the RWK to save them waiting in the queue to enlist in Anerley - will try to fins it again and see if he was a 11th man ...

Surrey Recruitment Register introd says East Surreys set up special enlistment centres at Streatham, Wallington and Upper Norwood among other places - all surround Croydon. Did a quick check on CWGC under these areas for ES deaths - seems a mixed bag of Bns really ... My 'Croydon platoon' looks like a round assumption.

Thank you for looking, appreciate your time

Jim

[Perth Digger]

If you have any more questions that might be answered from the book, Jim, just let me know and I'll go through it. It's more open about the recruiting problem than the book on the 11/RWK.

I've also got some volunteers with Upper Norwood addresses. I'm trying to make sense of how the recruitment process worked, how the wider area was divided up and why some were sent to the Maidstone depot while most were allowed to join the 11th. Maybe I'm being naive to think that there was a logic in the process.

I have one underage volunteer who deserted the 11th, joined the 12/E Surrey and was killed at Flers.

Mike

[Jim Hastings]

Thank you Mike,

Croydon does seem a bit of enigma - and I too try to find some logic. From 'Croydon in the Great War' I ascertained that the region was a Queens RWS recruiting area (4th Queens TF were also based there) until Spring 1916 when it became as East Surrey regt recruiting area (maybe that is why there is an ES man depicted on Croydon memorial). There are lots of London Regt men too - I can only assume largely men who worked in London (East Croydon major rail link to London). I will check RWK men and on thinking on it R Fus too, see if any patterns.

I wonder if it was a Brigade recruiting plan? Get men from South London into a Brigade unit, whatever that unit may be ... but then again the Portsmouth Pals were part of the Bde too, and can't see mayors working together on it, surely they sure it as a Boroughs prestige to fulfil a Bn's manpower.

Be nice to unravel it wouldn't it? I suppose the whole of London area became a melting pot of recruitment - that's why i expected more examples of Pals units beyond the ones listed above, but maybe Pals units or the idea of them was not as universally appealing as we may think now?

Interesting and perplexing! I am often drawn back to Croydon's war, but always find myself in a tangled mess and back off for a bit of less headache haha! Do you know much about the Wandsworth and Battersea units by the way?

Thanks again

Jim

[Perth Digger]

No I don't Jim. I have a general interest in the 41st Division, but mainly in the 11th RWK. And then really only the initial volunteers (Longboat is the expert on the battalion).

It's getting on for 11.30pm here, so I'm off for a while now.

Mike

[Jim Hastings]

Just checked Mike,

7 of the 13 RWKs listed under Croydon on CWGC were 11th Bn, and not just from one area of Croydon either.

Includes two officers and two MM winners. Think one of officers may have been A Coy OC - Captain BA Purver?

Cheers

Jim

[David_Underdown]

As it's name suggests, Paul McCue's "Wandsworth & Battersea Battalions in the Great War" covers both 13th East Surreys and 10th Queens (I think there may be the odd comparison to the Bermondsey battalion too)

[Longboat]

Jim,

Paul McCue's book mentions the 31st Regimental Recruitment District being made available to the 13th East Surrey's for recruitment purposes.

The Link here may help to explain more http://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/military/indexes/surrey-registers

Although I have only researched the local papers when researching men of the 11/RWK what struck me was the number of adverts from other battalions who were recruiting in South London including the 10/RWK (Kent County), the various London Regiments as well as those you have mentioned.

Stuart

[Jim Hastings]

David/Stuart,

Thank you both. I checked 'Croydon during the Great War' further and it described how the first mayor (1913-16) promoted recruitment into the 4th Queens. However, in March 1915 there was a reshuffle in Surrey recruiting areas and Croydon became under the East Surrey Regt, remit and a Capt Barrie of the East Surreys became responsible for the town's recruiting. Parades/Marches were made through the town - including the local Queens and 24th Middlesex (?!) but also led by LCpl Dwyer VC (1ES) - to drum up recruits. The new mayor also decided it was more important to get men in khaki and navy rather than concentrate on one Regiment. So in short there were no 'official' Croydon Pals: the first mayor concentrated on the local TF and the subsequent one just urged men to the Colours - reflecting the needs of the times I suppose.

Be nice to find a football team or something similar joining all together though

Thanks again

Jim

[David_Underdown]

Jim - I should say that I have info on several Croydon bellringers who served, including C F Johnston of the Croydon bell founding firm of Gillet and Johnston

[Jim Hastings]

Thank you David,

Did they join together and in the same unit?

[David_Underdown]

Not that I recall

[mcassell]

Back in the 1970s, a relative of Company Sergeant Major George Elmes - from Brockley - insisted he had served in the Bermondsey Pals, even showing me an East Surrey's cap badge and the 12 Battalion's distinctive collar badge that he said belonged to Elmes. However, it turns out CSM Elmes was in the 11 RWK though he did not go to France with them, having transferred to the MGC in January 1916. I always suspected he might have switched his 'allegiances' to his local battalion though the 12 East Surreys were formed a week or so after the 11 RWK. I grew up in Streatham and I remember that the owner of a local cobblers/bike repair shop had a pennant on the wall for the 13 East Surreys with the logo 'Streatham's Own 1915-18'; this may have been some form of platoon marker as I know the 13 East Surreys also recruited from Balham and Clapham. If nothing else, this shows local loyalties were very strong.

[Jim Hastings]

That is really interesting GP, thank you,

I wonder, with the 'extra' East Surrey's recruiting centres being opened that if, along with 'Streatham's Own', there were 'Wallington's Own' and others that may have provided to platoon(s) or at a stretch company level. Have to have a bit of a dig about when some time ...

Lots of units for south London men to choose, from the Londons (20, 21,22,23,24th), 11th RWKs, 12th and 13th East Surreys and 10th Queens

Be interesting to see the recruiting patterns (something for the future perhaps?)

Funnily enough my grandfather moved to South Norwood from Holborn just before the war and he opted for the RWK ... But he was whisked off to the RGA before he knew it!

I can only assume, as mentioned above, that Croydon focused on its TF Bn, 4th Queens, rather than promoting Pals recruitment - but I will still look into it (my gut tells me there's a Pals platoon/Coy in Croydon there somewhere!!)

Thank you for all your replies

Jim

[Perth Digger]

Gunner

Do you mind if I ask you whether Elmes was actually in the 11th RWKs? His MIC (the only military record I can find of his) gives his RWK number as 9410 (without the usual G prefix). G/9140 was not an 11th number (a large batch of numbers around 9140 was used by the 10th or the Depot). As a Warrant Officer Class 2 in 1915, I presume he had been a regular before the war? A regular number would be L/9410, so perhaps he was a recalled Reservist?

I may be totally wrong in all my presumptions here!

Re local loyalties, when the 11/RWK left Catford for Aldershot in December 1915, The Catford Journal gave a long list over several columns of all the Lewisham Borough men in the battalion with their addresses. They did not bother to record the hundreds of volunteers from Deptford, Southwark, Woolwich, Greenwich etc etc (and Croydon!).

[Tony N]

This may not be of interest but I'd like to add that my great grandfather and his brother served as territorials in the 22nd Bn. before the war, both volunteered in Sept. 1914 and both were from Bermondsey. They were recruited into the 15 Bn. RB and the 24 Bn. RWK. A brother-in-law from Bermondsey who joined mid war was sent to the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers and another great grandfather from the Old Kent Rd. (Elephant & Castle end) served in the the 12th London Bn. and RA.

I wonder if they perhaps went to the recruitment office with the shortest queue regardless of battalion/regiment or if after volunteering locally they were soon sent to wherever they were needed.

Tony

[Jim Hastings]

Cheers Tony,

I take it they didn't fancy going back to the 22nd Londons? I have just done a check on CWGC East Sussex fallen to see what cross section of the Regt they cover and surprisingly until 1918 the greatest majority were from 1st Bn - I expected it for 1914, and with 2nd Bn for 1915, but 1st Bn came up a lot in 1916 and 17. There is the RSM of the 9th, William Ladd, but he would have been either 1st or 2nd originally no doubt. Sprinkling of 7th and 9th, few 12th, one 13th and more 8th towards end of war. I suppose with Dwyers promotional tour of SE London many volunteers who had the chance to choose a Bn pushed for his? Obviously as war progressed they were sent where needed, if they were lucky enough to even get a choice of Regt! Will try the same exercise for the Queens and see what happens - 207 men so will take longer.

Thanks

Jim

[mcassell]

Gunner

Do you mind if I ask you whether Elmes was actually in the 11th RWKs? His MIC (the only military record I can find of his) gives his RWK number as 9410 (without the usual G prefix). G/9140 was not an 11th number (a large batch of numbers around 9140 was used by the 10th or the Depot). As a Warrant Officer Class 2 in 1915, I presume he had been a regular before the war? A regular number would be L/9410, so perhaps he was a recalled Reservist?

I may be totally wrong in all my presumptions here!

Re local loyalties, when the 11/RWK left Catford for Aldershot in December 1915, The Catford Journal gave a long list over several columns of all the Lewisham Borough men in the battalion with their addresses. They did not bother to record the hundreds of volunteers from Deptford, Southwark, Woolwich, Greenwich etc etc (and Croydon!).

If I recall correctly - and it is some 35 years later - I purchased Elmes' MSM (actually the MSM disc with BWM suspender) from a local collector who had got it from the family. He put me in touch with the relative who showed me a box of odds and ends, including the badges. For a long time I had assumed he was formerly in the East Surrey's until his MIC showed RWKs. To be honest, I cannot remember exactly why I thought or how I found out he was in the 11/RWKs and your comments re his number would seem to indicate he may not have been in the 11 battalion after all. I suppose it is possible he was a recalled reservist attached to the newly formed 11 RWK but....

Elmes' MGC number (4145) is one of the first block issued in January 1916 to MGC (Infantry) but there is no obvious connection with 11/RWK machine gun section transfers number wise. My recollection is that I was told by the relative that Elmes was an older man too old to serve in France and only served in Russia. Many of the men in 280 Company were of low physical category - many B1 and B3s - so it is possible that George Elmes was a recalled reservist, was retained at the MGC Depot because of his age or physical condition, and was then posted to 280 Company for service in Russia. In the absence of his service record, I guess we will never know.

Thanks very much for your query - even if things are not much clearer!

[Perth Digger]

Many thanks for the detailed answer, Gunner. I'm a complete beginner when it comes to regimental numbering, so I wouldn't give up on his being in the 11th.

It's an interesting story about him eventually seeing action, in Russia. He would have got a BW medal for service, but no VM as he didn't go overseas. Or would he get that medal for Russia (or some other one)?

Mike

[mcassell]

I believe everyone who saw action in the Russian Intervention got the British War and Victory Medals even if that was the only theatre they served in. I know of a Sergeant in the MGC who got the BWM, VM and the Territorial Force Medal though he only served in Russia.

[Perth Digger]

Thanks for the info, Gunner.

Mike

[Longboat]

Mike/Gunner

The 11RWK's battalion historys roll of honour includes those men who enlisted and were subsequently transferred or left with the details before they embarked overseas.

There is no one by the the name of Elmes amongst the list although that is not conclusive proof in itself. The author points out that the list was compiled some years after the war had ended and there could be some omissions.

Stuart

[Perth Digger]

Hi Stuart

Thanks for the information. The roll of honour you mention: is that in Russell's history?

Mike

[Longboat]

It is Mike. I'll email you over the weekend.

Stuart.