Bayonet Reshuffle

[shippingsteel]

As I mentioned on another thread I was running out of storage space for my collection and it was becoming an issue, so I lashed out and bought another tool cabinet.

I got a good deal on it and I find they are perfect for storing bayonets, with their layers of shallow drawers that can be easily slid in and out, to allow for ready access.

This will mean I will have to do another reshuffle and then decide what should go where ... decisions, decisions At least it does make for another photo opportunity.!

So over time I will post up some photos of a few of the examples that will be vying for the favoured 'top shelf' position. Its always a tough call but these are my favourites.

Some of these may have been posted on the forum somewhere before, but there will be a few others that have not been seen. Anyway I hope you do enjoy seeing them.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

So I'm going to start with the Springfield's first up, as I think they are a little overlooked outside the USA, and they are getting harder to find in the period finish.

I think they are a nice style of bayonet, and its certainly true they played their part in some of the big battles the Americans were involved with during the war.

There were the 2 makers of these - the Springfield Armory and the Rock Island Arsenal, and they were originally finished bright, and later blued or parkerised.

This particular example is an SA manufactured M1905 dated 1909 in the bright finish, with its matching M1910 scabbard with the unusual canvas sheath/cover.

Of special interest here is that everything is intact as it was made, and that both pieces have matching markings indicating service with a Marine Corps garrison.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

And another M1905 this time from the Rock Island Arsenal and dated 1917, featuring a strange kind of blued finish which I haven't seen before or since.

Apparently only a few were made at this factory during 1917 (possibly only 400) and they were reportedly all blued as opposed to the later parkerisation.

I have also heard from a very good source that some of these bayonets could have been blued after arriving in France, done with a special Italian process.?

I can't say for sure how it has been done, just that it's unusual and something which is seldom seen. And I am yet to find another 1917 RIA to compare it with.

Cheers, S>S

[militariaone]

Greetings S>S, I'd love to share some of my M1905's with all. They are quite plentiful and available (Yes, for a price) in the States.

Currently, I'm deployed to Afghanistan and separated from my collection (hence my ability to photograph them to share).

Originally, I thought (Naively, it now appears) that I'd be able to score some obscure Ersatz German Bayos while here, but my remote location has proved a bit of a challenge in hitting a market or two. In fact, other than the beat up Soviet era belt buckles available in Bagram, I have not observed any Bayos, even AK-Bayos.

Oops, got off topic there my apologies. Thank you, for sharing your M1905s and please keep up you excellent postings!

Regards,

Lance

[shippingsteel]

Currently, I'm deployed to Afghanistan and separated from my collection (hence my ability to photograph them to share).

Originally, I thought that I'd be able to score some obscure Ersatz German Bayos while here, but my remote location has proved a bit of a challenge in hitting a market or two.

In fact, other than the beat up Soviet era belt buckles available in Bagram, I have not observed any Bayos, even AK-Bayos.

Thats a shame, I would have liked to see them as I'm sure they would rate highly. Perhaps another time when you get back - be sure to stay safe.

Yes it seems that particular pile of rocks and dust has been well and truly cleaned out of any collectible bayonets of any condition for quite some time now.

There were some really good examples coming out of there early on in the piece, and I scored some nice items that were brought back with the Canadians.

Which reminds me that I must post a pic of the Winchester made P1913 that I got with that lot, still in quite amazing condition considering where it was found.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

And then of course we have the Turkish bayonets - how could I forget.! And it would be terribly amiss of me if I didn't have one of these examples in my top ten.

In this case it is the rarer version for the Mauser M1887 rifle, with the inscription indicating it was made by Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Cie of Solingen in 1888.

Approximately 270,000 of these M1887 rifles were supplied to the Ottomans, with bayonet production being contracted to WKC, Alex Coppel and VC Schilling.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Hi S>S - Im glad to see that you finally caved in and got that second tool cabinet! Presumably that means you now have a lot of room to expand your collection further?

Some lovely bayonets so far, Im looking forward to seeing your pick of the bunch.

[sawdoc34]

REAL nice bayonets there S/S

We need more pics of the rest to drool over.......

[trajan]

Thanks S>S for sharing those nice babies of yours! BUT, in layman's (i.e., very simple!) terms, how do you tell the difference between a blued and a parkerised blade? I understand the different technologies involved, but I have no idea what the end result is...

Trajan

PS: Oh, and I know it is really non GWF, but how does one identify a 'modern' phosphated blade?

[shippingsteel]

Guys, thanks for the comments - so I take it that I should continue.? Okay then, so here is a few more ... and enough of the questions Trajan (is layman a rude word.?)

Next up is one of my favourite styles of German bayonets. Their early designs really had that extra bit of 'flair' about them and I can see why they kept them on as sidearms.

Known as the Seitengewehr 1871 these were brought back out of obsolescence to be fitted onto the Gewehr 88, as the encumbent 71/84 bayonet was considered too short.

This one was made by Clemen & Jung of Solingen in 1876 and the workmanship is outstanding. Easy to see why the Solingen cutlers were considered the best in the world.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

I think I must have a soft spot for the 19th century 'sword bayonet' as they do have that certain appeal. They really knew how to make a nice piece of kit back then.

Whilst not the greatest condition bayonet in the collection, this one deserves a run more so for its specialty than its scarcity. Both a trials bayonet and a conversion.

Originally made as a P1886 trial bayonet for the short-lived Enfield-Martini rifle in .402, some of these were later converted, becoming known as the P1887 Mk. IV.

These conversions were done in 1891 and as evidenced by the C 91 stamped on the ricasso. The original E-M marking can also be clearly seen 'lined-out' as well.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

And these next few come from another section of the collection, nothing pristine here but very special in their own way, either by way of markings or usage.

Firstly a well used P1903 in original finish with just a semblance of the bluing still intact, and featuring grips heavily stamped on both sides with the letter S.

This one was converted into P1903 format, from what was originally a 1901 dated P1888, and was initially unit marked to the 2nd Batt. Coldstream Guards.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

It may not look like much but this next bayonet holds a very special place in my collection. My best example of an untouched 'battle bayonet' from the GW.

It's blade is nicked and sharpened, the muzzle ring is bent and the mortise slot is damaged, and very importantly shows no signs of reuse or refurbishment.

What makes it so different is that this bayonet has been used in battle, and particularly as its been numbered and marked to my relatives own Military District.

Other than that it's just a standard P1907 made in 1916 at Lithgow, but it's the history written in every single piece of that bayonet that makes it special to me.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

S>S, you clearly have great taste when it comes to bayonets. Whilst I do love the s71's, the last two bayonets that you posted are absolutely fantastic specimens. Its great to have bayonets in good condition but nothing beats a bayonet with an obvious history - especially when its related to your relatives or a specific area of interest. As you say, dates, regimental markings and general wear and tear can all contribute to make a particular bayonet special. I do hope that we have only just started with this show and tell

I would like to reciprocate with some bayonets of my own but collecting has been a little slow recently (in relation to bayonets anyway). I did however pick up a lovely trench map of the early Somme battlefield (showing High Wood, Pozieres and Bazentin) with trenches hand marked and named. A story for another thread I suppose...

Anyway, please keep the bayonets coming.

J

[shippingsteel]

Yes Jonathon, I think that is the beauty of collecting bayonets. While everyone has slightly different tastes, there is always room to collect what you like personally.

I do like every bayonet in my collection to have some kind of 'story' or special history, as to me it is that link with the history that makes it such an enjoyable pastime.

Some of my favourite bayonets have not cost me very much at all, but after researching their 'story' have become more special to me simply because of that history.

Likewise I found something different in my travels just a few weeks back. Digging around in an antique store I came across a veterans original discharge document.

It virtually gave the mans service history details on the single page. After some research I found he fought with the Hants right alongside the Australians in Palestine.

They attacked a strongly defended redoubt during 2nd Gaza suffering heavy losses, but took the objective and held on for a time despite running short of ammunition.

The remnants were joined by some Aussies and together they fought fiercely until eventually forced back. This man survived the battle with a serious GSW to the arm.

He served for the full duration of the war before eventual discharge, and must have enjoyed the company of the Australians as he decided to immigrate after the war.

It was a great story to uncover and just shows its not just about the items themselves, but the history that they represent that makes these things so truly special to me.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

I do hope that we have only just started with this show and tell ... Anyway, please keep the bayonets coming.

Well I've still got quite a few boxes and piles to sort through that have been building up over time, just waiting for some place to go - it's going to take a while.!

There is some that have been cleaned awaiting photos, and plenty that still need to be cleaned, it all takes time. At the moment I'm just working off file photos.

Here's a few more with some interesting histories, well at least as indicated by the markings they are stamped with. You just need to be able to join up the dots.!

This one is a P1888 Mk. II that was made at Enfield in 1901, that was issued to the Royal Navy, as evidenced by the letter N stamped just above the timber grip.

Also shows a large battalion size rack number on the pommel, which may mean it saw service with the RND, which we do know were using the MLE at Gallipoli.

Particularly intriguing is the fact that the N has been marked out and the bayonet reissued in '16, the same time that the RND became part of the regular Army.?

Also of interest is the 'treatment' that has been applied to the metal surfaces of the bayonet to ensure they were non-reflective, something done for the trenches.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Here is another 'hard-used' P1903 that was made in 1904 by R.Mole & Son of Birmingham, and its not hard to see this ones been round the block.

Nothing special except for the unit markings, which indicate re-issue to a wartime raised Army Troop Company, which saw service on the Somme.

They were there for the big battles during '16 and you can clearly see its been an RE issue due to the prodigious amount of 'scabbard wear' present.

The Engineers were armed principally in case of emergency and these would have spent most of the time rattling in the scabbard while they worked.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

And from the other team we have a German S98 in the much scarcer 'alter Arte' format (with the one-piece timber grip) made at the Royal Arsenal in Erfurt in 1901.

This one is marked to the Infanterie-Regiment Nr.161, and features 'sharpening for mobilisation'. Apparently these were only to be sharpened in readiness for war.

I believe the full designation for the above mentioned unit is the 10. Rheinisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.161 (Düren, II Bn Eschweiler, III Bn Julich) IX Armee Korps.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

This is another German type which became somewhat 'infamous' during the war, but which can tend to be a little overlooked by collectors today.

A percentage of the standard S98/05 bayonets were manufactured with a saw edge along the back of the blade for cutting light timber and brush.

These weapons were then subject to a sustained propaganda campaign by the British which eventually led to the saws being removed from service.

This example was originally an early model S98/05 mit sage (with the high ears) that was made by WKC and accepted for Prussian service in 1915.

The sawback bayonets began being removed from frontine service during the latter part of 1917. They then became the S98/05 sage abgeschliffen.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

S>S, thats a very nice sawback removed 98/05, I'm currently looking for an example myself - they seem to be much harder to locate than sawbacks themselves. Perhaps this is because the soldiers who were souveniring these bayonets preferred the sawback examples if they had a choice? The 98s and the 98/05s are definitely two of my favourite bayonets.

Quick question - were the P1887s used in the GW at all?

J

[shippingsteel]

Quick question - were the P1887s used in the GW at all?

I think you guys are what they term in the business, "a well informed crowd" - as you are always asking those 'searching' questions.!

I'm sure it is probably debateable but I think they would have still been in use on the 'secondary weapons' that saw action in the 'other' theatres of the war.

By that stage the rifles attaching them would have been the Martini-Metford Mk.II and any Martini-Enfield conversions that retained the original heavy barrel.

I think the MM Mk.II in .303 calibre would have been the main contender for period use, especially in the colonial African campaigns, and with Indian troops.

I have asked the question before myself, and finding any evidence is difficult, but I am confident that the native Askari would have known the Martini-Metford.

EDIT. Found a book mention regarding the Rhodesia Native Regiment, that Major C.L. Carbutt commanding the regiment's second company at New Langenburg

noted "that one of his platoons had been reissued with the new SMLE rifle and his other three platoons had received the slightly older but similar Martini-Metfords."

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

I was reminded again of this bayonet when Chris posted his Turked example on another thread. This is the Australian used 1911 Enfield with hook quillon removed.

This is a favourite as much for the work that I put in on it (considering the state it was found in) as it is for the very special set of markings that it's been stamped with.

Part of an early shipment of British P1907 bayonets that came out to Australia, it is these examples which would have made up the majority of the early war weapons.

At this stage Lithgow was not in production and Australia was still reliant on sourcing its rifles and bayonets from Britain. Many would have seen some use at Gallipoli.

With evident sharpening this one has seen some service, and is marked to the Victorian Military District with a very early run V36. These serials ran to the mid 5 digits.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Hi S>S, do you have any shots of the markings on the Enfield 1907 by any chance? Is it one of the early marked examples that you mentioned in a previous thread (ie that had a Vxx marking as opposed to 3rd MD xxx)? You've done a fabulous job of restoring it (Im assuming from your email that it was found in poor condition).

[shippingsteel]

Hi S>S, do you have any shots of the markings on the Enfield 1907 by any chance? Is it one of the early marked examples that you mentioned in a previous thread ...

It's the same one that I mentioned previously. There are plenty of 'before' shots shown with the blue background on this thread HERE (page 11, Obsv.of Bayonets)

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

S>S you have definitely done a fabulous job of cleaning/ restoring that bayonet - the blueing in particular has come up very nicely. I've noticed (both on this site and elsewhere) that most of these early Aussie marked 1907s are EFD produced and dated to late 1911 - is this consistent with what you've seen? Some have the more common MD markings, and some have no Australian markings but have ended up in Australian scabbards (weaker proof I know).

PS. Someone may want to put in a call to Trajan, I find it almost inconceivable that he would be able to view this thread without posting!