Can anyone identify this uniform?

[Jim Clay]

Hello forum members

I'm hoping that some of you with naval knowledge will be able to identify the uniform in the attcahed photo.

The photo (a postcard by Plucknett of Kingswood, Bristol) was kept in the Bible owned by "A.F. Shackleton, A.B. on His Brittanic Majesty's Ship 'Suffolk' on the Mediterranean Station 1906-1908". Arthur Frank Shackleton would have been aged 18-20 at the time of this posting, 27 at the start of the War, and family legend has it that he was a RN lieutenant.

Does the photo bear out the legend?

Any pointers on this will be most gratefully received.

Regards

Jim

[DirtyDick]

If he was an AB it would be unlikely that he would have become an officer, although by no means impossible, since until 1912 all seaman officers (i.e. non-engineers and doctors etc.) had to go to the Naval College at the age of 12-13, and promotion from the ranks was rare. In 1912 18-yr-olds were first accepted for training (Selborne-Fisher scheme?) to cover for a shortage of such youthful cadets.

Other officers came from the RNR and RNVR.

As for the photo. Not 100% certain, it seems quite perlexing. He appears to have an officers' style cap badge but the rank on his arm - 3 buttons on each - would seem to indicate that he was a Chief Petty Officer wearing a full dress frock coat - again unusual for a non-commissioned rank. This would be more likely if he first served as an Able Seaman. A lieutenant would have two bands on his cuff or otherwise on shoulder boards.

Richard

[Ali Hollington]

Could the hat be one of the photographers props, other threads have come to this conclusion when the dress doesn't match up?

Ali

[Jim Clay]

Richard

Much appreciate your observations - most interesting!

Best wishes

Jim

[Jim Clay]

Ali

An interesting thought. The photogs of the time certainly liked their props!

Jim

[Staffsyeoman]

It would have to be a 'suite' of props - as the sword belt and sword are certainly officer's issue... Mystery deepens?

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

The Cap Badge appears to be a Queen Victoria Crown{St Edward's} example,on a later Cap,perhaps he had this one taken to impress the Ladies!!!?

[John Milner]

This looks like the old style Midshipman uniform. Midshipmen wore three buttons to denote their rank prior to the white collar insignia that is still used today.

John Milner

[Jim Clay]

Gentlemen

Your comments are much appreciated.

John's observations seem to indicate that the family legend could be true - but would the old style midshipman's uniform still be worn in, say, 1914-16, even for ceremonial, and would his age (late 20s if this IS Arthur Frank Shackleton) make the rank of midshipman unlikely (thinking of Napoleon-era tales like "Midshipman Easy", he was nobbut a lad surely)??

Glad to introduce a conundrum for your delight!

Regards

Jim

[PhilB]

Any ex-naval type know:-

Would a midshipman carry a sword?

Would any warrant officer (or navy equivalent) carry a sword?

Phil B

[RNCVR]

Jave just come onboard & dont want to "torpedo" any of the theories so far, & certainly dont wish to offend - but none of the speculations are correct!

This photo is of an Royal Naval Warrant Officer - & yes an AB could make Warrant Officer if he had a lot 'on the ball', was ambitious, & was prepared to get some education, even in the Victorian Navy. I have a few examples of them in my collection.

I am thinking this man was one of those individuals Jim.

As he has no medal ribbons on his frock coat in this photo, it might have been taken prior to WWI, but unlikely if he was an AB in '08. It took quite a few years for a rating to make Warrant. I think perhaps during or after WWI, the Navy underwent a big expansion in WWI & many skilled men were warranted from the ranks during the 1914-18 period. His cap badge appears to be Tudor (Kings crown) to me, but its not all that clear even with a glass. I cannot say why he wears no medal ribbons if indeed taken after WWI.

A check of the Naval Lists would reveal if A.F. Shackleton was indeed Warranted.

I will try to post a couple of my Warrant Officer photos for you.

Bryan

[Jim Clay]

Bryan

Many thanks for this.

The photo was kept in AF Shackleton's Bible which was passed down to his recently deceased niece, from whom the family legend presumably originates. AFS was her much-loved Uncle Frank. Two theories occur to me:

1. She never knew his Naval rank and assumed, reasonably, from the photo that he was an officer.

2. She told her family that he was a Warrant Officer, and they picked up only on the Officer part.

Whichever, your info, and the points put forward by other pals, are very much appreciated and will be passed on to the daughter of the recently deceased niece, who is now the keeper of Frank's Bible and photo.

I've attached a new scan of the cap badge, but the original is obviously too grainy to get much detail.

Best wishes

Jim

[Jim Clay]

Well I thought I'd attached it!!

[Jim Clay]

... and I didn't expect it to be blown up that much!

Here's a smaller one I prepared earlier.

[michaeldr]

Advise please:

I note that not only are his cuffs without ‘rings’ but that also his belt is plain i.e. without any gold bands. I have seen a Lieutenant with two gold bands on his frock coat belt and Commander and Captain with three gold bands on their belts. At what rank did the gold bands on the belt come in?

Thanks

Michael D.R.

[RNCVR]

Hi Jim,

It appears as if his cap badge is the Tudor (Kings) crown, worn from 1901 onwards.

Here is a scan of two Warrabt officers - photo taken in the 1920's. They are wearing the "reefer jackets" which were for everyday wear.

Bryan

[RNCVR]

& here is another photo of a Victorian period warrant officer in frock coat.

Warrant officers wore no gold lace either on their sleeves or on their dress coats, belts, or cocked hats, as did Commissioned officers. They always wore the three buttons on their cuffs, as did all Chief Petty officers after 1920.

Warrant officers were just that - Warrants - they held warrants instead of commissions. Unlike Army WO's, they were classed as officers (they wore the commissioned officer cap badge) & entitled to a salute (& woe betide those newly entered seaman, stokers etc that failed to salute a Warrant officer!!!), they had their own messes, separate from the commissioned officers, on board ship & shore establishments, altho this rule was somewhat more relaxed during WWI when the Navy went thru great expansion & class restrictions were somewhat lifted - the pre WWI RN was very very class oriented.

Warrants were drawn from the ranks, that is from the Seaman, Stoker, Artisan, Supply etc ratings. Some Artificer Engineers were recruited directly from civil life in WWI due to the rapid expansion of the Engineering branch.

Warrants were skilled experienced men who knew their trades very well. Most had spent a minimum of 10-15 yrs in the ranks in their respective ratings.

Usually for a man to make Warrant he had to have sufficient education (a minimum of a second class certificate), had to pass rigorous seamanship & general knowledge exams, absolutely a clean conduct record, & had to be a well qualified specialist in his trade/rating.

Usually he came up thru the lower deck ranks fairly quickly, & generally made Warrant from PO1 or CPO.

There is also the rank of Commissioned Warrant Officer & I'll send a scan of one fo these fellows later.

Hope this helps,

Bryan

[RNCVR]

The Victorian WO image I attached in my previous post - he wears the Naval Long Service & Good conduct medal - many of them had sufficient lower deck service (10 or 15 yrs depending upon the period) to qualifiy for the LS medal prior to being warranted. The only other Naval rank/rate entitled to carry a sword was the Master At Arms, & any rating with any sense at all in his head just 'steered clear' of him!!!!!

All Warrants were entitled to carry a sword in dress uniform., & the sword was identical to a Commissioned officers sword.

Warrants were referred to as "Mister" when speaking to them.

So if you were talking to Gunner Williams (a Warrant rank) you would, salute first & address him as: "Mister Williams" .

For Michael - the dress gold lace belts commenced at the first commissioned rank - Sub Lieutenant. Sub Lieuts, Lieutenants & Lt Commanders wore 2 gold bands, Commanders, Captains & Commodores wore 3 gold bands, & Flag Officers wore a gold oak leaf embroidered belt with two smaller gold bands.

All Warrants & Commissioned officers wore a plain black leather belt when wearing undress frock coats.

Bryan

[RNCVR]

Here is a photo (a CDV) of a Victorian Warrant Officer taken approx 1870 period.

The image is somewhat faded & his medals are not all that clear but it appears as if he is wearing medals for Baltic, Crimea, possibly China 1857-58, Turkish Crimea, & the Naval LS medal (the wide suspender type).

He wears the standard Victorian undress frock coat which was pretty much everyday wear at that time. If he went into dress frock, he would add the black belt, exchange his peaked cap for the fore & aft cocked hat, & add his sword.

Hopefully the photo will come out reasonably well,

Bryan

[Jim Clay]

Bryan

Thanks for sharing this with us. What strikes me as common to all of these photos is that these are guys whose authority must be respected - and they know it!

All the best

Jim

[RNCVR]

Yes Jim, these men would have wielded a lot of respect if nothing else; not too much would get by them. I doubt many commissioned officers (at least below the rank of Commander) would be telling Warrants what to do!

Here is illustrated a somewhat rare rank in the RN - & this man would have a LOT of respect & authority, probably about equivalent of the First Lieutenant - the Commissioned Warrant Officer, a pre War rank that was abolished after WWI.

After a Warrant officer had served 10 yrs in that rank he might get promoted to Commissioned Warrant Officer, if retirement age had not caught up to him by then & there was a vacancy in his specialty & he was considered worth of being promoted to Commissioned rank. Very few made it to Commissioned rank in the pre war Navy, the age factor being the main barrier.

The CWO was somewhat unique as he held both a Warrant & a Commission at the same time. He would have ranked with a Sub Lieutenant, & wore the single gold lace above his three sleeve buttons.

The CWO was abolished after WWI & the Warrant's 3 buttons were replaced by a single thin gold strip on each sleeve, the rank Warrant Officer being retained.

The photo illustrated is from approx the mid 1880's period. he wears medals for Crimea (Sebastopol clasp likely), Turkish Crimea, Baltic, Egypt (possibly the Alexandra clasp), & the Khedives star. I would think he likely entered as a Boy around 1852 or so, & was still serving at the time of the Egypt 1882 campaign, so he would be at least in his 50's by the time this photo was taken. I dont know his name unfortunately, but I sure wish I did!

Sooooooo, hope this little dissertation has helped you & assisted her daughter somewhat!!!

Best.....

Bryan

[michaeldr]

Bryan,

Many thanks for your time and for your trouble

I greatly appreciate the explanations, not only about the belt worn with the frock coat, but also about the rank of Warrant Officer, of which I was previously ignorant

Regards

Michael D.R.

[RNCVR]

Finally here is a photo from my collection of a Royal Naval Lieutenant from the 1880's period.

He is wearing his full dress uniform. These uniforms are both very heavy & very hot!!! Imagine wearing this in the heat of a Mediterranean summer, in days beofre dry cleaning!!! The double row of gold lace on his belt is visible as is the gold cord lace on his fore & aft hat. Only Commissioned officers wore the gold epaulettes on their shoulders.

He wears the Egypt 1882 campaign medal with clasp for Alexandra & Khedives star.

Bryan

[Jim Clay]

Bryan

I can only echo Michael's comment - and thanks so much for sharing this wonderful collection and your deep knowledge with us.

All the best

Jim

[RNCVR]

Pleased to assist Jim & Michael, always happy to show photos & details from my collection!

Bryan