Sandy829 Posted 26 February , 2011 Share Posted 26 February , 2011 Hello. I am trying to establish the location of the "Bluff Tunnels" and "Elzenwalle Chateau". The Officer I am researching was in the Wearside Pals (20 BN DLI) and was listed missing after a German counter-attack on 1 Aug 1917 and from references in John Sheen's excellent book on the Wearsiders I have established this is where they were reforming on that date. I have tried google & the search function here but the location of these two places is not clear to me, I think they must be somewhere in the region of De Palingbeek and Hollebeke but would like to know the exact location. I also seek information on where to find the War diaries of the Weaside Pals and any unit records that may be in existance for their officers, I have found the officer's records in the PRO in Kew but unfortunately they just contain the correspondence between the War Office and his family after he was declared missing, I was hoping to find service records and is M.C. citation etc. Any web link, pointers or grid references will be much appreaciated Many thanks in advance Sandy829 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Sandy, Elzenwalle is south of Ypres, territory village of Voormezele (A on the satellite pic ; the castle itself marked with my arrow). Kemmelseweg (road Ieper (Ypres) to Kemmel) Approx. 2 km from the beginning of the road, right side. Ypres itself is just north of the top edge. When you google with Elzenwalle Kasteel or Kasteel Elzenwalle you will find articles and pics, but I'm afraid all (or most ?) in Dutch. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 He was one of 3 officers killed that day, and unusually, just one Private, Thomas Skerrow.... Name: FLETCHER, THOMAS MAY. Rank: Lieutenant Regiment/Service: Durham Light Infantry. Unit Text: 20th Bn. Age: 28. Date of Death: 01/08/1917. Awards: M C Additional information: Son of Thomas May Fletcher, of "Sunnyhurst," Highfield, Chester-le-Street, Co. Durham, and the late Margaret Fletcher. Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 36 and 38. Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL Looks like the officers were specifically targetted, do you know how many men were captured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Sandy Here is an extract from a trench map dated 27/3/1918. Elzenwalle is shown in square H36c. Map courtesy of the National Archives trench map DVD from naval and military press. I can't find any reference to Bluff Tunnels. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Sandy I have now found a reference to "North Street (Tunnel. The Bluff)" on the map search for the Zillebeke trench map dated 30/6/17 and it indicates that it is at square I34c. I have reproduced the extract below showing the relevant square, but there is no annotation to show either North Street or the Tunnel The Bluff. The area is a few km south east of Ypres. I am not sure if this is the location you are after but it is roughly the right area. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 I guess there were several tunnels, related to the mines that were exploded and the craters from 1915 and later. A small sketch in Dominiek Dendooven's booklet "Van The Bluff naar die Grosse Bastion - Het provinciaal domein De Palingbeek tijdens de Eerste Wereldoorlog - Wandeling van 10 km, 7,5 km of 4,3 km" (s.d.). Page 12 ("Een naoorlogs [= post war] kaartje schetst de verschillende kraters and tunnelsystemen op The Bluff") As far as I know : only Dutch though. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jainvince Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 The Bluff was previously the location of a Canal tunnel which due to unstable ground collapsed to be replaced by a deep cutting and bridge which also subsequently collapsed. Whilst this post on the Ypres Forum was about the collapsed bridge it also includes more maps and aerials of The Bluff as well as links to other details of the area. http://ypres1917.3.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=424&hl=bluff&st=30 As Aurel suggests, the reference to the Bluff Tunnels may refer to mining tunnels but it could also refer to the construction of dug-outs etc post the Messines Ridge attacks. There are many other posts which include The Bluff on the Ypres Website: http://ypres1917.3.forumer.com/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=c2cda8cb0f734f738f2af4585fd661b5&search_in=posts&result_type=topics&highlite=bluff If this link doesn't work you can always search that forum but may have to join first. Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Wouldn't the "caterpillar" at the bottom of Square 34 be a logical place for any tunnels, into the sides of the cutting? Much of the surrounding area is marshy, so as "Bluff" denotes some sort of cliff, that seems the most logical choice... n'est ce pas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierlijn Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 "Bluff Tunnels" is a general term for the tunnel complex which developed in the eastern spoilbank of the Ypres Comines canal, extending north from 'The Bluff' for about a kilometre. By mid 1917, one tunnel extended the full length of the spoilbank, containing sleeping quarters, pioneer stores complex, hospital, and progressing southward became a double tunnel for traffic in different directions (hence 'North Street') and finally at the Bluff itself, a mass of fighting and listening tunnels at various depths. On 7th June 1917, the war moved away from this battlefield, and many of the tunnels immediately became redundant. However the accomodation dugouts and hospital, and some sheltered assembly areas would have remained in use. But if these soldiers were killed at this location, it would have been a chance shell as neither Bluff nor north-south spoilbank was under direct German observation at the time. As the soldiers were posted as 'missing' on 1st August, it is very likely they were lost in the attack on Hollebeke village, which is about 1km south east of the Bluff tunnels. This was an attack peripheral to the main opening battles of the Passchendaele campaign which opened on 31st July 1917. The 20th DLI and 41st Division captured their objective, Hollebeke village, which had also been an objective in the Messines Offensive. The 41st Division then repelled a series of counter attacks, which at one point drove them out of the remains of the village. This battlefield was a quagmire at the time, partly due to the disturbance by shelling of the bed of the canal. Hollebeke is in the bottom left side of this photo. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Hugh Most interesting. Thanks for that post. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 (Hugh) I can understand the beer with your avatar, but the banana????!!!!!!!???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy829 Posted 27 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Many thanks to everyone for the swift and informative responses. Although not the Bluff tunnel location That last B&W picture posted by Hugh puts in the situation in context, I have tried to match it with this google earth map. Kevin you hit the nail on the head in one it is Lt. Thomas M. Fletcher M.C. I am researching. His family were close to my Grandmothers. I have his memorial plaque and officers field telescope in my possession. A couple of months ago I idly thought I would look up his details to find out a bit more about him and was shocked at how compelling the information revealed has been. The name on the plaque gave me the CWWG details of his unit and Menin Gate location. The unit details gave me the link to John Sheen's book The Wearside pals. John Sheen's book revealed the link to the London Gazette for his M.C. citation and included a photo of him. Using Google Earth I have been linking the place names in the book to the location of the 20th Bn. up to the point of his reported missing date when he was in charge of D Coy. This led to my question on Bluff Tunnels which is where (I think) he went missing. One of the nearest CWGC cemeteries is Oak Dump and from their website that interestingly has 5 unidentified burials.. I viewed the Thomas Fletchers WO 339/2910 documents at Kew yesterday they contained the distressing correspondence between his father and the War Office but, more poignantly, there was a letter dated 16/01/1920 from a Mademoiselle R. Dupont from Anvers Belgique asking for news on his whereabouts. From WO 339/2910 I have these War Office numbers and wonder if there is any other source that could be traced to them? C2 Cas, X98613, and 4061/4 Is there a conclusive DLI war diary for this period for 20 Bn. which will document the Hollebeke action? And where may that be viewed? Thank you all again, the information you have supplied will make my planned trip this summer all the more fulfilling. Kind regards Sandy829 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Sandy, The small sketch showing the craters and tunnel systems in the Bluff. (Sorry for the poor quality) Canal itself near the bottom edge. The sketch can be compared to Willy's trench map. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierlijn Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 The barrage prior to the attack of 31st July wrecked the canal bed on the right hand side of the N-S road, while the canal on the left side of the road held by the 41st Div. remained intact. Sandy's Google Earth extract shows it to remain the fact today. The canal effectively ends at the lock by the roadside, and a sketchy line of trees and marsh is all that remains of the canal bend. I've been interested in this action, as it has been very much in the shadows of the Pilkem offensive on the same day. There is an excellent account of a counter attack briefly penetrating the ruins of Hollebeke on 5th August 1917 in Jack Sheldon's 'German Army at Passchendaele'. But any other suggestions for further reading would be welcome. The banana being held by a sultan, because I was once responsible in a former life for a beer made with bananas and sultanas, called 'Bananatana'. It did not make me rich. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 And if my calculations are correct, the area of the sketch in my previous posting correspondends more or less to an area on this satellite pic approx. 300 - 400 meters to the left of the word Bluff. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Only completing what KevinW4 wrote earlier today. The other men who fell on that day, in 20/DLI, were - 2/Lt. James Ballantyne - and indeed Private Thomas Skerrow. None of them (nor T. Fletcher) have a known grave. Only Menin Gate Memorial. Kevin, who was the 3rd officer who fell that day ? If they have a grave (unidentified) I doubt if it were Oak Dump Cem. just south of the Bluff (southside of canal), as on August 1st the 123rd Brigade was already more east of the Bluff area (in the village of Hollebeke I guess, as Hugh pointed out.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierlijn Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Here are before and after maps of the action of 31st July. There were also divisions in action to the north at Klein Zillebeke and the 19th to the south around Wambeke-Oosttaverne, making similar small gains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 You will see from my signature that my great uncle died of wounds on the 1st August 1917. On the 31st July 1917 he attacked with the 23rd Middlesex between the canal and the railway line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierlijn Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 The maps make Hollebeke look more substantial than it was at the time. It is in the middle of this photo. My thought was that the soldiers in question were more likely lost here than behind the lines in the Bluff area. Roger, if it's of interest, I could re-edit the maps to include the Middlesex's area of assault. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Aurel, the third officer was Name: BRITTON, EDWARD WHICKER. Rank: Second Lieutenant Regiment/Service: Durham Light Infantry. Unit Text: 20th Bn. Age: 27. Date of Death: 01/08/1917 Additional information: Son of the late Mr. and Mrs. F. J. Britton. Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 36 and 38. Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL Three officers and only one private.... it's very unusual to see that ratio of statistics, which is why I wondered if other men had been captured and maybe the officers silenced to ensure the OR's behaved... I have to say I'm intrigued by... more poignantly, there was a letter dated 16/01/1920 from a Mademoiselle R. Dupont from Anvers Belgique asking for news on his whereabouts. Is anything known about that young lady? I do hope she was his true love, such a waste if he left this life without some pleasure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Roger, if it's of interest, I could re-edit the maps to include the Middlesex's area of assault. Hugh Hugh That would be good! Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierlijn Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 If the unit had been relieved on the night of 31st July and were indeed in the Bluff area 'reforming', this group may have been hit by a chance shell. But I don't think that would have lead to their being posted as missing. That was far more likely in the difficult conditions near the front line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy829 Posted 27 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2011 (Admin question: Is there anything I need to do to activate the private messaging system? I see I have 2 new ones but just get a dissallowed error message when I try to view them) Many thanks for the further information it is truly fascinating, we are reaping the rewards of modern technology that was sadly not available to the relatives of the missing in the conflict we are discussing Here are the two artifacts that started me down this path, the simple bronze plaque and the officers telescope, what understated testament to heroic deeds. T.M. Fletcher - hero in the true sense. Son of a Geordie Blacksmith, he was wounded at Flers in 1916 so I wondered if he had met Mlle. Dupont whilst recovering from this . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.