113th Seige Battalion RGA

[OzyGirl]

Hello

I am wondering if anyone will be able to help me with information regarding My great great uncle.

I have done as much as I can from where I am living but finding this site I hope someone will be able to answer some questions I have about him.

According to the war graves information someone helped me find, he was apart of the 113th Seige Battalion RGA.? I cannot find anything on this battalion or what they did.

According to my father and what he was told my great great uncle was on the guns not sure what size the Battalion used. He was KIA and the information my father was told that he actually had his head blown off. Is there a way in which I could confirm this?

Also he was Acting Bombadier. Can anyone tell me what was his role would have been exactly?

I live in Australia so going into archives will be difficult for me. I have read that war diaries are available online is this correct? If so, can someone point me in the direction of what diary I would need to uncover the movements of this Battalion, or division he come under. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

My great-great uncle was

William Jones

Born 1890

died on 12th August 1916 France Flanders

Rank: Acting Bombadier

Regiment RGA

Battalion Glamorgan RGA (TF)

No. 591

Theatre of war: Aldershot

type of casualty: KIA

The other thing that puzzles me is that it says he died France Flanders, but he was buried in Peronne Road Maricourt. Ive had a bit of a look at a map and it seems to be a bit of a way to where he was killed. Anyone shed some light as to why that would be it seems to be far from where he was fighting.

I really do hope anyone could answer anyone of my questions no matter how big or small, anything to give me more of a picture on who this man was.

Thank you kindly

[ianjonesncl]

Some preliminary information:

Acting Bombadier William Jones is listed on CWGC as serving with 113th Siege Battery.

The unit was a new army unit, consequently it looks like your great great uncle transferred to the 113th SB, from the Glamorgan RGA, a Territorial unit. The Glamorgan RGA (TF) were a coastal defence unit with companies in Cardiff. Many of the coastal territorial units provided trained gunners to the new army units to provide a nucleus of experienced men for the war raised units. The 113th Siege Battery deployed to France in June 1916.

This is information from a previous post:

"113 Siege Battery RGA were formed at Pembroke Dock on 14th February 1916 under the command of Major Harold Allen. 25 NCO's and men were provided by 44 & 57 Coys RGA at Pembroke Dock and 32 NCO's and men, signallers and observers from A Depot RGA Bexhill. Three officers and 70 ORs of the Glamorgan RGA were to join later. They moved to Horsham on 21st March for training, strength 3 officers and 64 ORs. On 24th March 1/4 Coy Glamorgan RGA joined at horsham. They moved to Lydd for training and practice in April. On 16th May they were ordered to move to Stockcross and there to mobilise for service in France. Their armament was four 6 inch 26 cwt howitzers. They moved to Stockcross on 1st June. The advance party embarked at Southampton on 10th June and the main body on 12th June. Embarkation strength 5 officers and 151 ORs. They joined XXXI HAG on 16th June

A war diary is avai;able in the UK National Archives - reference number W095/301.

[ianjonesncl]

This is an extract from Haig's Artillery maps which shows gun positions in the Maricourt area. The square box symbol represents a 6in Howitzer. The BL 6in Howitzer 26 cwt had a range of 9,500 yards with a 100pound shell, or 11,400 yards with an 86pound shell. The positions shown are about 1,500 yards from the front line.

[daggers]

Adeloz

It look as though your 'Soldiers Died' info came via Ancestry, who until a few weeks ago were putting 'Aldershot' as the theatre of war for many who should have been recorded as having died in 'France & Flanders'. This glitch has thankfully been corrected for most if not all entries.

Acting Bombardier would give him one stripe and a recognition of his worth, and a bit of authority within the sub-section serving his gun. It was one step up from Gunner which was and is the equivalent rank to Private in the infantry. Later on, Bombardier became the title for the equivalent of corporal, with two stripes.

[Pedants may come in saying they are chevrons, and even inverted chevrons, but I am writing in terms we all used!]

D

[sotonmate]

AdelOz

This War Diary isn't online yet.I will try and make time to look at the relevant page at Kew next week,and let you know what it says,and what casualties occurred as there may have been more than one from his crew. I doubt they will confirm that he had his head blown off though.

The other thing you will need to do is read the CWGC cemetery notes for Peronne Road,Mericourt,as there was a reburial programme after the Armistice which concentrated graves into this cemetery from smaller ones in the area. From these notes it is possible that your soldier may be one of those.

Sotonmate

[OzyGirl]

Hi Ian

Thank you so much for the information that you provided. I had searched for details of this seige battery with no luck until this site. Now at least i have some information of the movements prior to the departure to france.

The map that you provided, could that or was that where the XXX1 HAG would have been position or is it just the map of where they could have possibly be considering where he died in Maricourt.???

Thank you for also providing me with the war diary number. Greatly appreciated.

kind regards

AdelAus

[OzyGirl]

Hi daggers

Thank you for explaining and providing me with some details on what my great-great uncles role would have been.

Now i can keep building up a better picture of him and his life.

Thank you

AdelAus

[OzyGirl]

Hi Sotonmate

I would very much like if you could and when you have time to look through this war diary for me.

I am very curious as to know what the movements were in the two months he was there fighting as he arrived in June 12th and died in the August on the 12th two months exactly. If i can know what battle they were involved in would be very helpful and give me the story as to what he did.

kind regards

AdelAus

[ianjonesncl]

The map that you provided, could that or was that where the XXX1 HAG would have been position or is it just the map of where they could have possibly be considering where he died in Maricourt.???

The map shows the closet 6 inch Howitzer position to Maricourt. At this point I would say it could have been the position, it would need confirmation from other sources to verify if this is indeed the correct location.

[ianjonesncl]

Adel

I have gone through the CWGC cemetery report for Peronne Road,Mericourt to establish if a particular event happened on the day William Jones was killed. Quite often with Royal Artillery losses you can see a particular date when casualties occurred (Battery subject to counter battery fire for example) and in some cases from the grave locations see where for example a whole gun detachment are buried together.

I was able to find 12 graves, of which 9 were killed 30th/ 31st August 1916. William Jones was killed 12th August 1916, the other casualty being Gunner AP Willcox. who is buried in a differentt row.

Ian

[OzyGirl]

HI Ian

Thank you for clarifying the information on the map for me.

Wow, thanks for the extra search you have done. I really appreciate it. A little more information that i can note down and hope to find more out along the way...

I am scouring through books now on the battle around peronne maricourt in the hope to see if i can find anything in relation to the XXX1HAG. If not it may give me an indication of at least the battle that did occur there. And hope at some point that I can get where they were clarified.

Kind regards

Adel

[sotonmate]

Adel

I have some info from the War Diary. If you use the PM system here (you can now that you have more than 5 posts) and send me your e-mail I will send the digital pics. If you don't know how to send a message click on my title on the left of this message and click on my email link.

Sotonmate

[sotonmate]

Adel

As soon as I can process the camera cards I will send. In the meantime you might be able to get someone here to fix a position for the grid reference of the guns of 113 SB,they were pretty constant for August 1916 at A16 a 1.9 which some here can transpose onto today's maps.

Sotonmate

[OzyGirl]

Thank you Sontonmate

I look forward to the war diary info.

I very much do appreciate you searching that information for me. Very greatful.

Thank you

AdelAus

[ianjonesncl]

Adel

Footage of the type of gun 113 Siege Battery would have used;

[ororkep]

Adel,

26 cwt Hows are correct as per the allocations for 113 Sge Bty. However I believe at the time of his death their armament was 6 in hows of the much older 30 cwt type. Along route they had exchanged their new 26 cwt hows with those for the 30 cwt ones of 9 Sge Bty ‘which had seen considerable service’.

This type with the awful recoil is one of the film clip options at the end of Ians excellent You Tube footage find.

Rgds Paul

[ianjonesncl]

I can see why the guys are standing clear when firing !

[sotonmate]

ij

Love the tile slippage near the end of the tape (1:20) !

Sotonmate

[Guest rhoose]

adel

from glam rga copies of part 2 orders, original army book 136 from 31-7-16 to 31-11-16

113th siege bty, 1/4 coy glam rga, No9 31st HAG Rouen 26-8-16

deaths, 591 jones, w. kia 12-8-16, afb 103 att'd tf records.

wounded, 264 lisney, 12-8-16.

good luck mike

[ianjonesncl]

Also he was Acting Bombadier. Can anyone tell me what was his role would have been exactly?

Adel

I have been looking at the Garrison Artillery Training Manual and it states that a NCO had to be either a trained Layer, Signaller, or Observer. Being an ex Coastal Artillery man I would favour him being a Gun Layer, the man on the sights who lays the gun to ensure it is firing on the required bearing.

Ian

[OzyGirl]

Adel,

26 cwt Hows are correct as per the allocations for 113 Sge Bty. However I believe at the time of his death their armament was 6 in hows of the much older 30 cwt type. Along route they had exchanged their new 26 cwt hows with those for the 30 cwt ones of 9 Sge Bty 'which had seen considerable service'.

This type with the awful recoil is one of the film clip options at the end of Ians excellent You Tube footage find.

Rgds Paul

Hi Paul

Thank you for the information you gave me. I was supplied the war diary for this battery by member sotonmate which i was very happy to receive and greatful of, and on the first page the details of the battery movements in fact state that they were ordered to hand over their guns to the 9th Seige Battery and take their 6BL 30cwt Howitzer. This was done in Corbie on the 17th June.

My uncle it was said that he had his head decapitated. I dont know alot on the mechanics or the guns but im wondering if it could be possible that not only through enemy bombardment that this could happen, but, i wonder if the gun could have become faulty and backfired or just seen too much action that could have contributed to this.??

Thanks again

[OzyGirl]

Hi Ian

Wow! Thank you for the footage on the guns. I would have to agree, you would want to stand clear when firing them. I could not even begin to imagine what that would have been like or sounded like. incredible.

I was interested to see how many men there were to operate the one gun.

thanks for the added info on the role of Acting Bombadier.

kind regards

Adel

[OzyGirl]

adel

from glam rga copies of part 2 orders, original army book 136 from 31-7-16 to 31-11-16

113th siege bty, 1/4 coy glam rga, No9 31st HAG Rouen 26-8-16

deaths, 591 jones, w. kia 12-8-16, afb 103 att'd tf records.

wounded, 264 lisney, 12-8-16.

good luck mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for you reply, and the information you provided. I was wondering if you would be able to help me with some of the information for me. Im very knew to some of the WW1 details, and Im a bit stuck on the abbreviations and some of the deatils. Are you able to tell me what the 1/4 coy means. that is a new bit of information i have not seen attatched to my great uncles details before, do you know what this may mean?

What would the No9 mean with the 31st Heavy Artillery Group.?

The abbreviations of, aft 103 att'd tf records mean?

and wounded, 264 lisney 12-8-16. Am i right in thinking that 264 were wounded on that same day??

sorry for all the questions

thank you

kind regards

Adel

[Guest rhoose]

hi Adel sorry its taken a while for a reply,

1/4 is 1st line No 4 company (most territorials had 2 or 3 sister units under the same name ie;- 1st/4th, 2nd/4th, 3rd/4th glam. RGA)

Just a guess No 9 is a section within 31st heavy artillery group.

AFB 103 is Army form B103= Casualty form, active service.

264 is Frank Lisneys sevice number.

regards mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for you reply, and the information you provided. I was wondering if you would be able to help me with some of the information for me. Im very knew to some of the WW1 details, and Im a bit stuck on the abbreviations and some of the deatils. Are you able to tell me what the 1/4 coy means. that is a new bit of information i have not seen attatched to my great uncles details before, do you know what this may mean?

What would the No9 mean with the 31st Heavy Artillery Group.?

The abbreviations of, aft 103 att'd tf records mean?

and wounded, 264 lisney 12-8-16. Am i right in thinking that 264 were wounded on that same day??

sorry for all the questions

thank you

kind regards

Adel

[nigelfe]

'No 9' is tricky, the battery in the unit of artillery and Group was just an HQ commanding a varying clutch of batteries, particularly in 1916. TTBMK sections (2 guns) were never numbered or lettered, the were Left or Right, or Centre when the bty had 6 guns, in each battery. Guns (sub-sections) were lettered A - D or F in each battery, they may have used numbers for FC purposes in WW1, but there were never 9 guns in a bty.

Coast artillery laying and observation were vastly different, with completely different instruments to that of the field deployed artillery. Although numbers make being in a gun detachment most likely their were lots of roles elsewhere in the battery and possibly the ratio of Junior NCOs was higher in these. Duties in a gun detachment wouldn't necessarily be fixed, they would rotate and this of course ensured there were competant soldiers to replace a casualty or a man on leave.