Canadian Piper on top of a tank

[centurion]

Found this account of the Canadians attacking at Amiens (written shortly after the battle)

"In another place the Tank "Dominion" led the procession with a piper skirling from its top. The tanks looked like prehistoric monsters as they lumbered over the trenches into the mist with their noses to the ground on the trail of the machine-gun nests." Captain R. J. Renison C. C

We know the tank - who was the piper?

[delta]

Interesting - who was the commander?

and where was the action?

[centurion]

Interesting - who was the commander?

and where was the action?

All I know is what you got - Amiens as I clearly said (1st day) and the tank was named Dominion

[delta]

OK - looks like a good paper chase

On....... on..........

[Copper6197]

According to Library and Archives Canada, R.J. Renison was a chaplain assigned to the CEF. Unfortunately his Officer's Declaration Paper sheds no light other than assigned to Chaplaincy Corps.

The 26th Battalion of the CEF, also known as the New Brunswick Regiment ,was a group of kilted Highlanders assigned to the 5th Infantry Brigade. According to author Tim Cooks's description of the Battle of Amiens (1918) in "Shock Troops", the kilted pipers led the 26th forward from the "Green Line" at Amiens through to the village of Guillaucourt on August 08. In the 26th's War Diaries for the date, at least two company commanders from the 26th make some comment about the sterling work done by the tanks in this sector, one company commander specifically mentioning tank "Nelson", but not "Dominion"

The Tank Corps (Canadian) war diaries do not appear to be digitized as yet.

So the anecdotal story above may be true. Certainly the Germans had great respect for the Highlanders of both the BEF and the CEF.

George

[centurion]

According to Library and Archives Canada, R.J. Renison was a chaplain assigned to the CEF. Unfortunately his Officer's Declaration Paper sheds no light other than assigned to Chaplaincy Corps.

So the anecdotal story above may be true. Certainly the Germans had great respect for the Highlanders of both the BEF and the CEF.

Hence the C C after his name when I quoted him. He wrote an account of the Canadians at Amiens a few days after the battle, it shows very little of the spirit "love thine enemy". The reference to the piper is on this acount. Playing the pipes standing on top of a rocking and rolling tank must have been difficult as well as hazardous

[charlesmessenger]

Dominion was a 4th Tank Battalion tank. Some of this battalion's tanks supported the 16th Battalion (Canadian Scottish) in its advance to the Green Line. The Canadian Scottish certainly used its pipers during the attack, both to inspire and to help identify progress in the fog. Hence it could have beern one of these.

Charles M

[KevinBattle]

Wasn't the use of pipers and bagpipes against the Geneva Convention banning cruel and unusual punishment?

Coat, hat....

[centurion]

Wasn't the use of pipers and bagpipes against the Geneva Convention banning cruel and unusual punishment?

Coat, hat....

Yes but the tank crew wouldn't be able to hear it

[IPT]

For his bravery at Passchendaele, the Pipe Major was awarded the Military Medal, as was Piper

G. Paul.

Piper Paul was later killed at Amiens, on August 8, 1918. As the Battalion was groping its way

over a slope, Piper Paul mounted one of the tanks, named "Dominion;" his pipes skirled out "All

the Blue Bonnets are o'er the Border", and with this dramatic lead the troops on the right flank

moved towards the enemy. As the CO, with Piper Paul along side him, reached the crest of the

ridge, an enemy machine gun opened fire at point blank range, killing Piper Paul.

http://www.kinnairdbagpipes.com/files/16th_band_history.pdf

Name: PAUL, GEORGE FIRTH

Initials: G F

Nationality: Canadian

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Canadian Infantry (Manitoba Regiment)

Unit Text: 16th Bn.

Age: 38

Date of Death: 08/08/1918

Service No: 429603

Awards: M M

Additional information: Son of John and Mary Paul. Born at Sanday, Kirkwall, Scotland.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: A. 13.

Cemetery: DEMUIN BRITISH CEMETERY

If you wish to imagine the scene, here's Blue Bonnets;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbQJIM9BCUw

[centurion]

Thanks for this - a brave man indeed.

[jhill]

Dominion was a 4th Tank Battalion tank. Some of this battalion's tanks supported the 16th Battalion (Canadian Scottish) in its advance to the Green Line. The Canadian Scottish certainly used its pipers during the attack, both to inspire and to help identify progress in the fog. Hence it could have beern one of these.

Charles M

If this is true, a copy of the 4th Tank Battalion's Report on Operations for this period is stuck in with the corresponding War Diary folder of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Brigade.

The 4th Tank Bn supported the 1st Canadian Division on 8th August with 42 'fighting' tanks. There was also a number of 'baggage' tanks, used both to supply the tanks themselves, and also to transport forward infantry signallers and machine gun squads. This latter use seems to have been exceptionally unsuccessful.

As seems to have been typical in those days, the usefullness of the tanks was disputed. In this regard the reports of the various infantry battalions involved should be browsed as well as that of the tank battalion.

After four days the 4th Tank Battalion was left with 16 tanks fit for action.

[Copper6197]

Pte. G.F. Paul, Canadian Expeditionary Force 16th Battalion

Rest in Peace

George

[Sidearm]

I think that the quote that started this comes from McWilliams, J. & James Steel, R. (2007) "Amiens 1918" p.115. Obviously the essence of the story is true but I wonder whether the name "Dominion" is fictitious. I can find no corroborating evidence that the name was carried on any tank (yes, as pointed out in another post, it should be a 4th Battalion name). It just seems curiously coincidental that a tank with this name should be working with Canadian troops.

Nelson mentioned in post 5 was a Mark V Male serial 9056 of A Company 14th Battalion commanded by Lt S.H. Cohen. It is recorded as being burnt out after receiving a direct hit on 8.8.18. I would be interested in knowing the source of the infantry record of this tank.

Gwyn

[centurion]

Renison published his account in September 1918 mentioning Dominion. I suspect that there is a genuine coincidence here (after all it could have been supporting the Australians).

[centurion]

There was a tank with a maple leaf and Toronto painted on the front plate which was working with the Canadians at Amiens so Dominion may not have been a coincidence and not related to the normal naming conventions.

[Sidearm]

I remain sceptical. I think the tank you're referring to in post #16 was a Mark II. It's possibly a variation on the normal conventions, which do seem to exist.

Gwyn

[centurion]

I remain sceptical. I think the tank you're referring to in post #16 was a Mark II. It's possibly a variation on the normal conventions, which do seem to exist.

Gwyn

No it was a Mk V at Amiens

[centurion]

I remain sceptical. I think the tank you're referring to in post #16 was a Mark II.

I suspect this is what you are thinking of. I enclose an extract from a film clip that claims to be of the Battle of Arras but can't be as it includes shots of MkIVs. I also include a larger still shot of the same guy painting the same tank. It was originally captioned 'Canadian soldier painting his tank before the Battle of Amiens' which seems equally unlikely. I can't make out the name but it isn't Toronto. However there is a shot (see my previous post) of a Mk V at Amiens with a maple leaf and Toronto on the front plate and I don't think there was a 20th Battalion involved! I posted a small clip - the larger photo shows the tank passing Canadian soldiers. So we know that there seems to have been a custom of painting Maple leaves and a name on the front of tanks associated with Canadian action which makes Dominion much more likely.

[janecavell]

A Google search tells me that Piper Paul and the Dominion are mentioned in Mark Zuehlke's book Brave Battalion: the remarkable saga of the 16th Battalion (Canadian Scottish) in the First World War, published 2008 by John Wiley, Canada. Parts of this book are online via Scribd, but apparently not the bits relevant to this thread.

[Sidearm]

Centurion - thanks for this. The pic of teh Mk V is new to me. (The name on the Mk II is Forage - a supply tank possibly?). I now agree that Dominion is likely to be a non-standard name on the same basis as Toronto.

Gwyn

[centurion]

There was a Forage supply tank at 3rd Ypres so this must be it.

[At Home Dad]

go here

for a video of All The Blue Bonnets Are Oer The Border being played,

should you wish to hear it.

Another fascinating thread

kind regards all

[centurion]

At the moment I am gently cooling off after having turned over a big compost heap, cut a large area of grass, plunged some potted plants and watered all the containers, plants in green house etc and cooked dinner (I'm down for extra duties this week due to illness - not mine). and whilst I do have a glass of scotch to hand the blue bonnets (and any other kind of bonnet) can bloody well stay over the border to night. This doesn't mean I'm not grateful and I'll probably listen tomorrow but at the moment I'd willingly shoot any piper in earshot.

[pilot]

Hello

The Luce / Maple Leaf Association 2 years ago in Démuin Cemetery paying respect to the 16th CEF Bn. Each time the piper walk around the graves, stop in front of piper Paul's marker and play a special tune (a lament)

In this battle, full of fog, piper Paul played a great part. The Blue Bonnet was heared by the lost soldiers, they were able to join the main part and attacked the quarry near Démuin Crossroad.

Sincerly