Sedan St Charles Cemetery

[SteveMarsdin]

Good evening Everyone,

I have been following with interest a thread over on "pages14-18", the francophone WW1 forum. The thread was started by the Belgian historian and author, Wim Degrande, about the state of decay of a German memorial, the only surviving remnant of a German military burial section, within the communal cemetery. The actual German graves have long since been moved (to the large nearby German VDK cemetery at Noyers Pont Maugis) but the memorial focal point was left.

As you can see it has now fallen in to disrepair and arguments are raging as to whether it should be:1) moved (difficult as it is built out of reinforced concrete); 2) fully restored in its current location, 3) made safe and preserved in its current condition and location, or 4) pulled down.

The debate has aroused passions, including those of a more extreme kind but the differing but more moderate viewpoints expressed do raise interesting questions about such monuments in an evolving communal cemetery

I will add in a few minutes further contemporary photos of mine plus WW1 and WW2 photos of the cemetery (courtesy of Wim and T. Rost)

[SteveMarsdin]

Following on here is the German WW1 burial section

The graves were relocated in the 1920s/30s but the ground was re-used by the Germans in WW2

[SteveMarsdin]

The communal cemetery principally contains civilian graves and as often happens the graves aren't all maintained in perpetuity, in certain cases the plots are re-used. The site of the German section is now being filled with civilian graves (I nearly fell in a freshly dug grave, whilst walking backwards taking a photo of the memorial !)

and closer up

[SteveMarsdin]

The cemetery contains graves and memorials from 1870, WW1 and WW2, including 1 to Jewish deportees

Amongst the WW1 French graves are ones to French and Belgian civilians, Russians "mort pour la France" and several CWGC headstones, largely from 1918

and

[SteveMarsdin]

The cemetery is located in the north-west outskirts of Sedan, near Floing and looking south-eastwards back across Sedan and the Meuse valley you can see the hills at Noyers Pont Maugis (where there are German and French military cemeteries) and Marfee where US General Sheridan joined the Prussian high command to watch the Battle of Sedan unfold in 1870

These photos give a "flavour" of the cemetery, what do Forum members think should happen to the German memorial ?

[Ice Tiger]

Steve

I can fully appreciate why this has drawn comment from the extreems of society.

Personally I would be in favour of either the restore or keep as is, by making safe & preventing further decay, options

Either way It would be such a pitty to have it destroyed

Andy

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks Andy,

I would like to think it could be made safe and secure, even in its present condition; with perhaps an information panel inside with copies of photos showing what it was like when the WW1 and WW2 burials were there and details of their current location.

[Christina Holstein]

I would wish that it could be restored to its original state but I fully understand why others would disagree and I can't begin to imagine the cost of restoration.

If not restored then I agree with Steve that I would wish it to be made safe and secure. I think I have read that it was a very modernistic style of monument in its day and for that reason alone it might be worth preserving for the purposes of tourism in a region that is rather run down today.

Christina

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks Christina,

As well as the design I think the extensive use of reinforced concrete in a memorial was advanced for the time also.

I think the cemetery, which itself is almost a microcosm of western European "recent" history, would lose an integral part if the remnant memorial was to be knocked down, or perhaps worse, to be left to decay further and eventually collapse of its own accord.

[SteveMarsdin]

1870

through WW1

and WW2

[SteveMarsdin]

And here's where most of the graves were moved to:

The German military cemetery at Noyers Pont Maugis

but the memorial wasn't moved, should it be left to decay ?

[JimSmithson]

Thank you Steve for highlighting this situation and a monument that, probably, very few folk are aware of.

I don't think the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge organisation would have the funds for a restoration, given their projects in the East. So it all comes down to who would finance and carry out such a task.

I will contact them and highlight the situation, using some of your photographs if you don't mind.

Jim

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks Jim,

I have no objection at all. (Wim tells me that the WW1 photo from his original "pages14-18" post should be attributed to "T Rost"). The contemporary photos are all mine.

Wim Degrande has some German friends who are also trying to do something but as with most such cases the more people raising the issue the better.

[SiegeGunner]

Many large German memorials were demolished soon after the occupiers left - often because they were overtly triumphalist or sited in an incongruous position - but this one seems to be in an appropriate place and to be more suitably commemorative, so perhaps that's why it survived the vengeful aftermath of two wars. Or maybe it was because it's built of reinforced concrete and could only have been demolished with explosives, risking damage to the rest of the cemetery. Either way, as it's still there now and appears to be substantially intact, I think it would be good if it could be restored and, perhaps, to give it a modern 'reason for being there', it could become, by the addition of suitable plaques, a memorial to the German dead and missing in that sector who have no known grave.

I've just read the discussion over on Pages 14-18, where there seems to be broad support for restoration, but a recognition that this might not be either popular or feasible financially. One poster states that since the German authorities have shown no interest and the French heritage bodies plead that they have no funds for such projects, the local authorities are on the point of deciding to demolish the memorial.

Also very illuminating to see the French forum discussion getting heated and their Moderators intervening most eloquently !

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks for your comments Mick,

I like your point about giving it a "modern reason for being there" and appreciate your summary of the discussion on "Pages14-18".

Do any other members have any suggestions or opinions ?

[halibag3]

Hi all,

I remember the sorry state this monument was in when I visited the place two years ago. But what was equally striking was the state of many of the British headstones in the French military section... I know the CWGC has embarked upon an ambitious programme of re-engraving those markers which need it most, but in the meantime a good cleaning would not be superfluous.

My very best wishes to all of you (snowbound) Pals.

Keep smiling.

Halibag3

[SteveMarsdin]

Good Morning Halibag3,

To be fair I didn't think the CWGC graves looked too bad when I was there. I do know the French were working on the 1870 portion and also the regional council were improving a lot of the roads, paths etc at nearby Bazeilles plus new parking facilities and signposting at Noyers-Pont-Maugis, including removing the tree (shown in this photo from a visit last August):

which was the only one on the embankment, behind which they had chosen to site the "Table d'orientation" !!!

[Guest Rundberg]

Thanks for your postings Steve, very informative and interesting! My knowledge about War Cemeteries is more or less nonexistant so I have nothing to contribute with in that department of exspertice.

But I think this thread underlines a wider point of view.

This monument is something left from WW1 and has de facto becomed part of our mutual historical herritage and is therefore something that should be left for comming generations. For me it doesn´t matter whether it´s a cemetery, Hill 60 or whatever. Leave it as it is should be the norm. Restorations to keep something from deterioration is fine in my book but that should really be it.

No intention to hijack this excellent thread but I do think this point of view has a valid bearing on the subject.

Chris

[SteveMarsdin]

Chris,

I would agree; in my mind, subject to funding, the only two options are to restore it fully in place or, if technically possible, to make it safe in its present condition (with perhaps some history panels added to the interior, explaining the cemeteries' background)

[Guest Rundberg]

Chris,

I would agree; in my mind, subject to funding, the only two options are to restore it fully in place or, if technically possible, to make it safe in its present condition (with perhaps some history panels added to the interior, explaining the cemeteries' background)

My sentiment exactly.

Let´s pray thats whats going to happen.

Sorry, couldn´t resist....

Regards,

Chris

[swizz]

This is absolutely fascinating. The cemetery says a lot about the history of Europe in the 20th century.

Swizz

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks Swizz,

The cemetery is as a snapshot of an important part of "the history of Europe in the 20th century". I think that alone is sufficient reason for trying to preserve the memorial in some form.

[Guest]

Hello Steve,

I'm brand new on this Forum. I'm a Berlin based Art theory student, working closely with historical issues.

I'm writing a master thesis these days on the (still unsolved) subject of the German memorial in Sedan - where I spend a few days this Summer.

Could you tell me from where the WW2 picture from the german funerial comes from? (from your second post on this page)

The interesting is that you can see that the concrete wall surrounding the cemetery has been tired down, but that the area is still free from french graves.

Thanks in advance!

Best

Adrian

[SteveMarsdin]

I can't remember exactly Adrian, it was probably an image I found through google: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sedan+st+charles+allemand&rls=com.microsoft:en-GB:IE-Address&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=3AA3VOT4IuWV7AaOqoHYBw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=645#imgdii=_

[Guest]

Thanks Steve,

Well, I can't find it anywhere else. But it doesnt matter, its was for thr source quoting for my paper.

Hereby three pictures of the monument and cemetery during WWII with german graves, I found today by chance:

It comes from a military forum that forbids access.