thejavelinman Posted 4 November , 2008 Share Posted 4 November , 2008 I have a Trench mortar lieutenant's tunic and have made up a dummy with boots, gaiters, jodphurs, Sam Browne, Webley Holster and Binoculars. I was wondering if anyone knows what other kit a Trench Mortar officer would have worn in action and whether or not he would have actually had a revolver, I would assume that being fairly close to the enemy he might have but any comments would be appreciated. Kind regards, Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 November , 2008 Share Posted 4 November , 2008 A worsted grenade on upper right arm, either almost white [on drab] or blue ball with white flames. A soft option if difficult in sourcing one is to paint a gilding metal version such as used on Fusilier shoulder titles. Such was done in the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithmaps Posted 4 November , 2008 Share Posted 4 November , 2008 A worsted grenade on upper right arm Like this one! LTMB Tunic Here is my LTMB Tunic. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 4 November , 2008 Share Posted 4 November , 2008 Compass and whistle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 4 November , 2008 Share Posted 4 November , 2008 Map case? D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 November , 2008 Share Posted 4 November , 2008 given that TMBs were hugely unpopular with neighbouring infantry units, a rapid horse in the background would be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejavelinman Posted 4 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2008 Thanks very much for all your replies, it is much appreciated. I have actually got a whistle on a lanyard on him as well although not a compass yet, I also have a Beck periscope but will have to find a way to keep it in his hands without falling off as it is not the unscrewable type. A horse in the background might be a little difficult as my dear wife is already good enough to let me have all this stuff in the house, I think she will draw the line at having a mannequin horse in the house as well, but I do have some spurs coming! Thanks again!! A very nice tunic Smithmap!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 4 November , 2008 Share Posted 4 November , 2008 Hello, Don't forget the mud. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 4 November , 2008 Share Posted 4 November , 2008 A worsted grenade on upper right arm, either almost white [on drab] or blue ball with white flames. A soft option if difficult in sourcing one is to paint a gilding metal version such as used on Fusilier shoulder titles. Such was done in the war. Has anyone got a version of the worsted grenade as Grumpy describes, as in 20 years of collecting I have never seen a white ball with flames, white or blue although books always describes these but I have seen no evidence of them? I have two officer examples, both are all blue and similar to Smithmaps, one is over embroidered in gold lace and the other is double the size with very long flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wig Posted 5 November , 2008 Share Posted 5 November , 2008 Two pictures, first of a TMB with the Stokes mortar and second the officers of a TMB with their interpreter. http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q306/be...35290stokes.jpg http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q306/be...tery_edit-1.jpg Also, I know a good psychiatrist and could probably get you a discount......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 5 November , 2008 Share Posted 5 November , 2008 Has anyone got a version of the worsted grenade as Grumpy describes, as in 20 years of collecting I have never seen a white ball with flames, white or blue although books always describes these but I have seen no evidence of them? I have two officer examples, both are all blue and similar to Smithmaps, one is over embroidered in gold lace and the other is double the size with very long flames. My book illustrates officer wearing white/white [probably a pale stone colour] such grenades were ten a penny, as being similar to, or the same as, the RE SNCO grenade ........ the RACD ledger is silent on this point. and surely the second photobucket shot shows the badge in wear on several arms? and Guy's example above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 5 November , 2008 Share Posted 5 November , 2008 My book illustrates officer wearing white/white [probably a pale stone colour] such grenades were ten a penny, as being similar to, or the same as, the RE SNCO grenade ........ the RACD ledger is silent on this point. and surely the second photobucket shot shows the badge in wear on several arms? and Guy's example above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 5 November , 2008 Share Posted 5 November , 2008 My book illustrates officer wearing white/white [probably a pale stone colour] such grenades were ten a penny, as being similar to, or the same as, the RE SNCO grenade ........ the RACD ledger is silent on this point. and surely the second photobucket shot shows the badge in wear on several arms? and Guy's example above. It shows the badge alright, but does not show it being white or blue/white (yes I know its difficult to tell in a B&W photo). I am still disputing the colour, Guy's looks definately blue/blue to me and your photo, eventhough it is B&W, appears to support Guy's blue/blue badge. If it was white I would have thought the flame would have stood out more. In your years of study have you got any photographic or a real example of the white ball or flames? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejavelinman Posted 5 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 5 November , 2008 It shows the badge alright, but does not show it being white or blue/white (yes I know its difficult to tell in a B&W photo). I am still disputing the colour, Guy's looks definately blue/blue to me and your photo, eventhough it is B&W, appears to support Guy's blue/blue badge. If it was white I would have thought the flame would have stood out more. In your years of study have you got any photographic or a real example of the white ball or flames? As far as I know the badges were blue/blue for TMB men, certainly the examples I have seen were just blue anyway, although my own tunic doesn't have this badge on it, the group photo also shows that not all officers wore these patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 6 November , 2008 Share Posted 6 November , 2008 Webley MK VI/holster, ammo pouch, gas mask, water bottle (filled with whiskey), haversack with a few poetry volumes or victorian novels. A pair of combination pliers/hammer always comes in handy.Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 6 November , 2008 Share Posted 6 November , 2008 As officer's badges [unlike OR's] do not seem to have been sanctioned by authority, it seems very possible that officers wore: 1. no badge 2. an RE SNCO grenade 3. a TMB OR badge The Edwards collection resides in the NAM. I have permission to view, and shall do so when next in town, and report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejavelinman Posted 4 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 4 December , 2008 I have since learned that the worsted grenade patch on the arm was only worn by Light Trench Mortar men. Men serving in medium and heavy batteries such as Toffee Apple, Stokes, Flying pigs etc. did not wear this patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 4 December , 2008 Share Posted 4 December , 2008 Medium Stokes gun, just a beefier version of the 3", with what look like RE personnel (probably the gas connection) no blue bombs obvious here. I'm sure Simon Jones would know. He is the font of all things RE and gas! Regards Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 6 December , 2008 Share Posted 6 December , 2008 Following on from the nice badges that Tocemma posted, here are a few of the TMB ones I still have in my collection. The one on the left is what I call one of the common examples and mainly worn by other ranks. The one in the middle is similar but is finished with fine silver wire, of officer quality. The one on the right is similar to the one on 16th Div RFA jacket illustrated earlier. The last two were removed from a pair of jackets (marks still show where they have been) that belonged to Lieutenant Richard Sapcote, X.16 Trench Mortar Battery, also of the 16th Irish Div. He was slightly luckier than Coles and survived the war. I still believe that Grumpy is incorrect in his book stating that the officers badge has white flames, and as seen in the illustration the blue does fade and could easiliy appear white in period photos. But I am happy to be proven wrong ... if you stick your head above the parapet be prepared to be shot at! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 6 December , 2008 Share Posted 6 December , 2008 Medium Stokes gun, just a beefier version of the 3", with what look like RE personnel (probably the gas connection) no blue bombs obvious here. I'm sure Simon Jones would know. He is the font of all things RE and gas! Regards Tocemma I have just looked at this thread - thanks for the build-up and congratulations on the fantastic tunic, Tocemma! In this instance I think the term ‘Medium Trench Mortar’ being applied to the 4" Stokes mortar is confusing and probably incorrect. To my knowledge, the 4” Stokes was used exclusively by the RE Special Brigade and not by Medium Trench Mortar units. I am also not aware of RE Special Brigade mortar companies wearing a grenade badge (but would be happy to be proved wrong). EDIT: Apart from the brass RE 'bomb' worn by Sapper Sergeants above the stripes, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 6 December , 2008 Share Posted 6 December , 2008 Hello Krithia, Very interesting to hear about Mr Sapcote and a very similar badge indeed. Am I right in thinking that blue sometimes photographed as white or pale grey on some old black and white film stock? I'm sure that I remember this from my art college days. Red came out as dark almost black, and yellow and blue did strange things, orthochromatic, panchromatic or some such term for the film...... Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 6 December , 2008 Share Posted 6 December , 2008 My 'officer white flames' is not something that I can prove at this remove in time ..... until a worn officer tunic is discovered with said object attached, I am quite prepared to be wrong. The man who never made a mistake never made anything! There does seem to be a huge array of types of both the TM and the bomber badge in existence, but there was only one of each approved by RACD as far as I am aware. I have a slack handful of each, and no two are identical. Considering that, after PVCN 1920 there is no mention, the badges only had a lifespan of 4 years or so ........ quite some output! Come on chaps, the hunt is on ..... blue or red ball, white flames .......... ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 6 December , 2008 Share Posted 6 December , 2008 Grumpy, Two of each type grenade was approved during the war for Bomber/Grenadiers and TMB. Bombers/Grenadiers by RACD pattern 8578/1915 (no Date)-This one was Scarlet Flames Khaki Bomb--The Bomb having a wooden insert. TMB Grenade 8646/1916 (21/1/16)--All Blue with wooden insert in Bomb. (lists as Introduction of pattern) Bombers Badge-9694/1917 (10/10/17)--All Scarlet--replacing above as stocks run out. TMB Badge--9695/1917 (10/10/17)--All Blue--wooden insert deleted in manufacture(last insruction ambigous as to whether this is only for the TMB Badge or also the Bomber). replacing above as stocks ran out. All Bombers/TMB Badges declared obsolete in August 1921. I think that this covers everything and nothing has been missed in the ledger that is no longer to be found. By going through the Obsolete lists from 1919 into the 1920's that missing ledger can be pretty much reproduced only the detailed descriptive detail is missing. I think that between TM and Krithia all official types are posted (I have only the pattern 8646/16 and posting a picture would add nothing). No Metal badges and no white flames. I believe that the larger TMB badges with Khaki Bombs illustrated are not official issue and procured via private sources. The others are the standard issue devices. It's always good from my perspective knowing whats what officially then seeing what else was done, available or is out there. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 7 December , 2008 Share Posted 7 December , 2008 Joe thank you very much ..... this thread has turned into a huge blast of erudition ..... I missed some ledger entries obviously. Not difficult, as it is very poorly indexed, and really 'stream of consciousness' stuff like James Joyce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 7 December , 2008 Share Posted 7 December , 2008 Very interesting to hear about Mr Sapcote and a very similar badge indeed. Am I right in thinking that blue sometimes photographed as white or pale grey on some old black and white film stock? Tocemma Yes, I think blue does appear as a kind of white on B&W photographs, so very easy to mis-identify. It would be interesting to find out if the larger style of TM bomb is unique to the 16th Irish Division? Some of the other items that are associated with Mr Sapcote's bits is an "Irish Brigade" gallantry certificate. He doesn't appear to have been awarded an MID, however would this be related to the Ginchy Diamond? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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