towisuk Posted 23 September , 2008 Share Posted 23 September , 2008 Just come across a book with details of the Messines mines blown on 7th June 1917........ So I thought i would post it for forum members interest. regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick D Posted 23 September , 2008 Share Posted 23 September , 2008 Very interesting, I think I've visited them all ! Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 23 September , 2008 Share Posted 23 September , 2008 Why were those tunnels dug the (strange) way they were dug? Why not straight from point a to b (which would be the shortest and fastest way)? Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 23 September , 2008 Author Share Posted 23 September , 2008 Hi Roel, I think the best man to answer your question would be Simon (Jones), so lets hope Simon see's this post and can add to the topic. regards Tom p.s. I have borrowed the 1934 book from which these two diagrams were taken, if I get a chance before I have to hand it back,.. I'll see if theres anything in the text that gives the reasons for tunneling as they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockney tone Posted 24 September , 2008 Share Posted 24 September , 2008 If you get the chance its interesting to view this map and locations with a modern day IGN map as many(if not all) the craters are still around and very easy to miss and drive past and some are in fact on private land. Viewing the modern map they appear as 'little blue pools'! Spent an enjoyable few hours last year trying to find them all! (Well I enjoyed it!) Regards, Scottie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 24 September , 2008 Share Posted 24 September , 2008 The tunnel shape is almost certainly to do with geological conditions. Avoiding rocky patches, staying in an easily dug seam, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 24 September , 2008 Share Posted 24 September , 2008 Makes sense; thanks, Chris. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 24 September , 2008 Share Posted 24 September , 2008 If you get the chance its interesting to view this map and locations with a modern day IGN map as many(if not all) the craters are still around and very easy to miss and drive past and some are in fact on private land. Viewing the modern map they appear as 'little blue pools'! Or try Google Earth! I typed in 'Wijtschaete' and west of the village the pools show up, going north. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 24 September , 2008 Share Posted 24 September , 2008 The tunnel shape is almost certainly to do with geological conditions. Avoiding rocky patches, staying in an easily dug seam, etc. Yes. Also especially avoiding areas of running sand or possibly sounds of German activity. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky53 Posted 24 September , 2008 Share Posted 24 September , 2008 This was Spanbroekmolen last month Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky53 Posted 24 September , 2008 Share Posted 24 September , 2008 Kruistraat Craters Top Peckham Farm Bottom Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky53 Posted 24 September , 2008 Share Posted 24 September , 2008 The Petit Bois Craters are far less obvious Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 24 September , 2008 Author Share Posted 24 September , 2008 Further to my initial posting, I have been working with a couple of mining engineers today and put the question to them...why the indirect route from A to B in a lot of cases?. The answer, as Chris pointed out in an earlier reply, was the route was deviating almost certainly due to the local geological conditions......... In fact the two images I posted at the begining of the topic, were from a book one of the engineers has lent me whilst he is working with me in our local underground mine I have been lent 2 books, one from 1915 and the other from 1934, and let me tell you..... they are full of fascinating instructions about ....mining, tunnels as well as explosives and how to detonate them. The 1934 book containing many things learnt from the 1914-19 war, and both books are military instruction manuals. regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 24 September , 2008 Author Share Posted 24 September , 2008 "things learnt from the 1914-19 war, " Ooooops! that should have been 1914-18 my finger missed the eight and landed on the nine......... Senility on legs...Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Brown Posted 26 September , 2008 Share Posted 26 September , 2008 As some readers will know No Man's Land have been working at the Factory Farm and Ultimo craters for the past two years. In that time we have seen a number of fascinating insights into the power of the mines including the scattered ruins of the defended farm, infilled trenches, failed trench walls and collapsed positions. In addition we have also seen what they did to people, with scatters of very small bone fragments and personal kit in the upcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinglma Posted 26 September , 2008 Share Posted 26 September , 2008 Tom Which book are the map and diagrams from? Initially I thought they might be from "War Underground: The Tunnellers of the Great War" by Alexander Barrie but on looking at my copy I see that whilst similar, they are not the same. Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartcphillips Posted 26 September , 2008 Share Posted 26 September , 2008 Did one of the Messines Mines fail to explode, then blow up in the 1950's when lightening hit a telegraph pole thus detonating it? I think it was a Messine Mine. Also am I right in thinking there are still 3 unaccounted for mines, 2 without detonators so reasonably safe, and one with a detonator which has the potential to go up when triggered? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 26 September , 2008 Share Posted 26 September , 2008 The tunnel shape is almost certainly to do with geological conditions. Avoiding rocky patches, staying in an easily dug seam, etc. Sort of; can I recommend my own book (Beneath Flanders Fields; Barton, Doyle, Vandewalle) which explores the geological reasoning in some more depth (I'm a geologist, you see...) Peter Did one of the Messines Mines fail to explode, then blow up in the 1950's when lightening hit a telegraph pole thus detonating it? I think it was a Messine Mine. Also am I right in thinking there are still 3 unaccounted for mines, 2 without detonators so reasonably safe, and one with a detonator which has the potential to go up when triggered? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Following up on this, there were more mines that were partially dug, others that were stocked with explosives, beyond the usually accepted four. Again, check out Beneath Flanders Fields for more information....) Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 September , 2008 Share Posted 26 September , 2008 For an understanding of the science [as opposed to the geology] of military mining on the Western Front, see also my article in Stand To! issue number 76. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 26 September , 2008 Author Share Posted 26 September , 2008 Tom Which book are the map and diagrams from? Initially I thought they might be from "War Underground: The Tunnellers of the Great War" by Alexander Barrie but on looking at my copy I see that whilst similar, they are not the same. Regards Mike Mike, I'll pm you the title of the two books I have been fortunate enough to borrow.... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 26 September , 2008 Share Posted 26 September , 2008 For an understanding of the science [as opposed to the geology] of military mining on the Western Front, see also my article in Stand To! issue number 76. If I may correct you, geology is a science; and it was the ability of the British to successfully combat the geological controls that won the battle of Messines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 26 September , 2008 Author Share Posted 26 September , 2008 Here's another plate that might be of interest............... Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 26 September , 2008 Share Posted 26 September , 2008 May I ask what is an overcharged mine & what are its effects Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 26 September , 2008 Author Share Posted 26 September , 2008 Arras Caves and subways 1917............. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 26 September , 2008 Author Share Posted 26 September , 2008 May I ask what is an overcharged mine & what are its effects Chris Chris I haven't managed to read the text in the book that describes what an overchrged mine is, and what the consequences are.....far to busy looking at the fantastic sketches and drawings that are contained in the book. Unfortunately I am going to be busy over the next four days, and won't get a chance to continue poring over the fund of information I'm lucky to have for a short duration Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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