Help please - WWI British Canteens - colour?

[viking_raid]

Hi Guys,

my questions is ..were all WWI British Canteens porcelin blue in colour ? or were some green or kakki brown (the canteen themselves not the holders) ? How can you tell a WWI British canteen from a WWII British canteen... . I want to know if any WWI British infantry canteens were any colour other than blue? Please help.

Cheers

Jason

[RobL]

I've only ever seen blue ones - can't remember what date the green ones came in, believe sometime in the late 1930s. Only difference i've seen with WW1 bottles is the covering, of either grey (early war) or green/brown (late war), don't know of the exact changeover though and no doubt grey ones would still be seen by the Armistice

Difference between a WW1 British canteen from a WW2 British canteen is that the WW2 ones were green - I believe the RAF used a blue canteen in WW2 which was a lighter blue than the WW1 canteen

I've never heard of them referred to 'canteen' earlier, just a good ole' simple water bottle!

[viking_raid]

Thanks Rob. Seeming I'm from Newfoundland and of English West Country decent I should say water bottle.. but I guess I've watched too many US WWII John Wayne movies.(LOL). I'll make a point to say water botle from here on in.

Thanks for the info. cheers Jason

I've only ever seen blue ones - can't remember what date the green ones came in, believe sometime in the late 1930s. Only difference i've seen with WW1 bottles is the covering, of either grey (early war) or green/brown (late war), don't know of the exact changeover though and no doubt grey ones would still be seen by the Armistice

Difference between a WW1 British canteen from a WW2 British canteen is that the WW2 ones were green - I believe the RAF used a blue canteen in WW2 which was a lighter blue than the WW1 canteen

I've never heard of them referred to 'canteen' earlier, just a good ole' simple water bottle!

[Peter Doyle]

I've only ever seen blue ones - can't remember what date the green ones came in, believe sometime in the late 1930s. Only difference i've seen with WW1 bottles is the covering, of either grey (early war) or green/brown (late war), don't know of the exact changeover though and no doubt grey ones would still be seen by the Armistice

Rob to continue (but broaden) this thread - by grey, how grey? I've got a blue flannel covered standard (Everton-)blue bottle, a black covered blue bottle (if you get my drift), and a khaki-green covered blue bottle. Are all WW1 vintage?. Mike Chappel often uses blue-flannel covered bottles in his illustrations, is this correct...

Peter

[RobL]

Can't get a photo of my two at the minute as they're packed ready for Kelmarsh tomorrow, but my bluey/grey covered one is a Pegasus one, there's a photo on his website here http://www.pegasusmilitaria.com/index_fich...ttlecarrier.htm

I'm by no means an expert, but no doubt all are WW1 vintage - a black one would no doubt be due to variations in manufactures etc. As for Mike Chappel often using blue flannel covered ones, probably because they were the ones in use at the start of the war and so would continue to be seen in large numbers. Be interested to know if anyone knows when they started to change to a khaki green colour

[Andrew Upton]

Rob to continue (but broaden) this thread - by grey, how grey? I've got a blue flannel covered standard (Everton-)blue bottle, a black covered blue bottle (if you get my drift), and a khaki-green covered blue bottle. Are all WW1 vintage?. Mike Chappel often uses blue-flannel covered bottles in his illustrations, is this correct...

Peter

I'm by no means an expert, but no doubt all are WW1 vintage - a black one would no doubt be due to variations in manufactures etc. As for Mike Chappel often using blue flannel covered ones, probably because they were the ones in use at the start of the war and so would continue to be seen in large numbers. Be interested to know if anyone knows when they started to change to a khaki green colour

Couple of points, black covered waterbottles are often attributable to those used by the St. John Ambulance in the post-WW2 period - I used to be in the Young St. John Ambulance (aka "The Badgers" from our black and white uniforms) when I was much younger, and they were very much in evidence still then.

As to the blue covers, I believe these are a post-WW1 thing, and seen in the Mike Chappell illustrations as quite a few reenactors use them, and he sometimes gets them to pose for photo's to base his pictures on (hence a lot of his illustrations also show things like most soldiers wearing shiney black boots, as Royal Navy issue deck boots are a cheap alternative for WW1 reenactors to expensive replicas of the usually rough out natural leather boots the majority of soldiers would have been wearing). These recreated illustrations always need to be taken with a pinch of salt...

[Peter Doyle]

Couple of points, black covered waterbottles are often attributable to those used by the St. John Ambulance in the post-WW2 period - I used to be in the Young St. John Ambulance (aka "The Badgers" from our black and white uniforms) when I was much younger, and they were very much in evidence still then.

As to the blue covers, I believe these are a post-WW1 thing, and seen in the Mike Chappell illustrations as quite a few reenactors use them, and he sometimes gets them to pose for photo's to base his pictures on (hence a lot of his illustrations also show things like most soldiers wearing shiney black boots, as Royal Navy issue deck boots are a cheap alternative for WW1 reenactors to expensive replicas of the usually rough out natural leather boots the majority of soldiers would have been wearing). These recreated illustrations always need to be taken with a pinch of salt...

Thanks, I had wondered. My black version is in a 1903 pattern leather sling, and my blue version I wondered whether it was RAF, but Mike Ch. had me wondering...

Cheers

Peter

[Chief_Chum]

Most British waterbottles were blue enamelled.

There are a few which were made in aluminium and some nickel-plated brass (these have ribbed sides) but they are the exception.

Even rarer is a pattern similar to the US or Brtish '44 pattern ones which can sometimes be seen in photos of men on the Somme in 1916. One of the Chums has a squashed one he picked up in Flat Iron Copse a few years ago.

All the blue Great War ones I have seen have a seam/lip around the top as well as the bottom whereas the WW2 ones usually just have the seam around the bottom and the top is curved smoothly into the sides.

Plenty of men of the BEF went to France in 1940 with blue enamelled ones. Some were later repainted khaki; you sometimes find a khaki/green one with blue inside the neck.

It would surprise me if the British Army went to all the trouble and expense of equipping their men in khaki uniforms and then gave them a blue waterbottle cover. All the Great War ones I have come across which are 100% original have been varying shades of khaki.

Taff

[Peter Doyle]

It would surprise me if the British Army went to all the trouble and expense of equipping their men in khaki uniforms and then gave them a blue waterbottle cover. All the Great War ones I have come across which are 100% original have been varying shades of khaki.

Taff

It would certainly seem the most logical approach....

Peter

[RobL]

So, a khaki covered one is acceptable for 1914 then? In that case it's ebay ahoy for my grey one, to help fund the SMLE i'm saving up for!

[wainfleet]

Rob

I suggest you hang onto your blue/grey covered waterbottle. The one you linked to is correct for the period. They were also covered in orange-brown felt. I have never seen an other ranks' cover coloured khaki, and am a bit surprised at Taff's post to that effect. I'll stick my neck out and say 03/08 bottles with "khaki" covers were rarely, or never, issued during the war. Both the brown and the grey colours of cover were also used in the Boer War, in the same thick felt-like material.

In addition to the point Taff made about the flat base and lipped top, the thread should be attached to the inside of the cover round the neck by stitching. Blue bottles with a loop at the neck are much later, probably WW2 or maybe 1950s.

Maybe the occasional cover was blancoed khaki, but generally speaking the only bottle with a cover resembling the khaki serge in colour was the emergency aluminium Canadian bottle, issued in 1914 and 1915.

Regards,

W.

[tocemma]

Hello all,

To echo what Wainfleet has said, I have never seen a khaki covered waterbottle that I knew to be Great War. Now and again I have seen Mk VI Great War bottles with WW2 covers on them but they were used well into WW2 alongside the Mk VII. Although some are done to deceive, the majority have been recovered during their service life. There is never a neat cut off with kit issues.

I am adding some photos in the next couple of posts of bottles I know to be of Great War vintage. In some cases they came with kit to named individuals but all are typical of the period. Not the long stopper cords on most of them, much longer than those seen on the WW2 bottles. Most are a warm grey in colour and two have the orangey-brown colour that Wainfleet described. Only one has a greenish tinge but even then I would not describe it as khaki.

Note the emergency Canadian bottle has a normal warm grey felt cover. There is an indistinct makers cartouche on the bottom of that one but it is impossible to decipher. One has a broad arrow acceptance mark with 52 below it. Most I have seen are devoid of markings except for the odd service number or name applied.

I understand that some of the Pattern 1915 Nickel plated bottles had the words Dismounted Use Only stamped on the covers but it is not present on the one shown here.

Regards

TM

Standard Great War bottle and 1908 Pattern cover. Typical warm grey blanket type felt cover. Used by 13991 Sgt G. W. Silk, 2nd Battalion, Royal Fusiliers.

 

Edited 7 November , 2016 by tocemma

[tocemma]

Orangey-Brown type cover in 1914 dated '08 cradle.

 

Edited 7 November , 2016 by tocemma

[tocemma]

Warm grey with definite green tint in 1915 dated '14 pattern cradle.

 

Edited 7 November , 2016 by tocemma

[tocemma]

Pattern 1915 Electro-Plated Nickel Silver bottle in 1916 dated cradle. Used at the Battle of Arras by Lt. W. L. Anthony, 1st Battalion, The Rifle Brigade. Lt Anthony was badly wounded in an attack on Rouex Chemical works.

Note this cover although of the Orangey Brown type has a distinct pinkish hue to it. Note the swaging pressed into the body of the bottle just visible as ridges on the cover.

 

Edited 7 November , 2016 by tocemma

[tocemma]

Standard warm grey cover in early pattern 1912 dated '08 cradle.

This bottle was used by 2nd Lt. George Ogilvie Anderson DCM, 2nd Battalion Gordon Highlanders, who was killed in action in the Ypres Salient on 26th October 1917. This bottle along with a set of other ranks equipment worn by 2Lt. Anderson was sent to the family after his death.

 

Edited 7 November , 2016 by tocemma

[tocemma]

Rear view of the Anderson bottle, showing the early sliding tab fixture.

 

Edited 7 November , 2016 by tocemma

[tocemma]

Canadian manufactured bottle issued as an emergency measure in late 1914/early1915. This has the usual warm grey type of cover. They are sometimes seen in darker shades brownish green.

The next photo shows the poor fit in a '14 Pattern leather cradle. The fit in '08 pattern is worse.

 

 

Edited 7 November , 2016 by tocemma

[Grovetown]

Interesting you mention the pinkish hue on one. Years ago, I came across a small batch of unused/ issued covers - dated 1914 to the interiors. They weren't pinkish - they were pink!

I still don't know whether they were made that colour or it was the effect of sunlight/ fading/ whatever.

Best wishes,

GT.

[tocemma]

Hello all,

Just another little snippet on water bottles. The 'Priced Vocabulary of Stores' from 1920, shows the relative prices of some of the water bottles. It is clear why only small quantities of the aluminium and electro-plate bottles were made.

Bottles, Water, Enamelled, Mark VI - 3s. 1d.

Bottles, Water, Aluminium, Infantry. - 8s. 4d.

Bottles, Water, Pattern 1915, - 9s 6d.

Dismounted services.

Regards

Tocemma

[tocemma]

Interesting you mention the pinkish hue on one. Years ago, I came across a small batch of unused/ issued covers - dated 1914 to the interiors. They weren't pinkish - they were pink!

I still don't know whether they were made that colour or it was the effect of sunlight/ fading/ whatever.

I suspect they were variations on the Orangey shades. Orange and pink dyes are not very stable and have almost certainly 'gone off' with age. The 'natural' colour of the usual type seems to be almost unchanged apart from surface grime.

I hope you snapped them all up GT!

TM

[Chief_Chum]

"I have never seen an other ranks' cover coloured khaki, and am a bit surprised at Taff's post to that effect. I'll stick my neck out and say 03/08 bottles with "khaki" covers were rarely, or never, issued during the war"

Hi Wainfleet,

The early part of the thread was asking whether Mike Chappell's illustrations which show a very blue felt cover was correct.

My point was that they were not blue but khaki which, with hindsight, was not very clear. I am not talking about being covered with khaki uniform cloth (although I do have a moth-eaten one which is) but felt covers in differing shades of khaki - not blue.

The impressive collection from Tocemma illustrates the point; all are in differing shades of khaki - or do you all think there is only one shade of khaki?

Does anyone have the original ACI for the MkV bottle? It would be interesting to see what the War Office asked manufacturers for. The original ones I have include all the colours shown above but I still say they they are meant to be shades of khaki (even the ones which look pink!) - not the blue shown in the Osprey illustrations.

Cheers,

Taff

[tocemma]

Hello all,

I think the problem here arises from the use of the word 'khaki' I think most of us would think of that term is generally applied in reference to the shades of wool serge used in the manufacture of clothing items. You'll note that I am being very specific with the use of language here. Khaki for instance can mean a very much different colour (or color!) to US members of the forum. US versions of it are often a much more mustard shade than the British version.

That said 'khaki' as used in the construction of British Great War uniform items comes in a multitude of colours from the original greyish Boer War period version, to later WW1 versions which can be distinctly green in colour, with every possible version of red and brown tinting in between.

I think the word 'khaki' is misleading when applied to the colour of these water bottle covers. The colour is quite distinctly different from Service Dress drab.

Most are simply unbleached wool fibre and shoddy which has been felted for insulation purposes. It has no real colour as such and is really an indistinct beigey-grey colour, (I suppose it's sheep coloured really) with the obvious exception of the orangey Brown variations (and one or two others) we have noted.

This is sometimes a result of the base fibres being used differing in colour. They were often the by-products of other wool production.

Much the same problem exists today in recreating the shades of wool used in Service Dress drab. Unless the colour mix percentages are controlled some very wierd shades result. This is a problem for those manufacturing reproduction uniform items today. One leading Yorkshire woollen company claims to make serge exactly as produced at the time, but in terms of colour, quality and weight it is often very wide of the mark.

Mr Chappel, bless him, who was mentioned at the start of this thread, has created many unintentional red herrings over his years of publishing. As I know Mike very well, I can vouch for the fact that he has done considerable amounts of original research and has visited my collection and others over the years as part of this process. We have also been to various archives together when researching various subjects.

The problems come when less well known items are 'interpreted' for the sake of clarity in illustrations. I'm sure that Mike would be the first to admit as an illustrator (as a professional military illustrator myself for over 15 years, I often did the same thing) he has stretched the amount of information available at times. Yes he's done blue bottle covers, mixed up the patterns of footwear, sometimes in one boot!!, and illustrated grey tin hats etc. etc etc.

It is common amongst collectors to knock him for his occasional lapses in accuracy. I would say that the miltaria hobby and the reenactment fraternity owe him a lot in having brought a great deal of less well known items to the fore. It amuses me to hear people talk with apparent knowledge about some of these items which were buried in our rich military past until he came along and brought them to a wider audience, and a lot of them down to his original research.

On the subject of blue water bottle covers.....the IWM has one in its collection which has a distinct blue tinge to an otherwise standard grey felt cover.

Never say never I think is the safest route.

Yours in a blue funk,

Tocemma, Water Bottle Filling Point, Feltham.

[Chief_Chum]

Hi Paul,

Yes, "khaki" has a very wide range of interpretation - the full range of 'khaki' Blanco reflects that too.

I must admit I have always thought of the covers as 'khaki' (as opposed the the later green and RAF blue ones). "Unbleached wool fibre" hardly has the same ring to it! I guess on here we all need to choose our words more carefully when describing.

I wasn't knocking Mike Chappell; I have helped him out in the past too.

The "grey tin hats" you mention are interesting. I have one belonging to Captain G W Kennedy of the East Surreys which I would have described as grey and a couple of others which appear to be the same colour.

Cheers,

Taff

[tocemma]

Hi Taff,

"Unbleached wool fibre" hardly has the same ring"

I quite agree!

"I wasn't knocking Mike Chappell; I have helped him out in the past too"

There was no suggestion of that in your post Taff, but people often blame him for the Blue-Green-Red-waterbottle-boot-hat-thing. It was more of a general observation from me really.

The type of specific questions people ask on the forum are often quite difficult to answer without upsetting someone "But I've got a yellow one of those"

I must admit I've seen all sorts of shades and covers over the last 36 years of collecting. I kept and showed the bottles illustrated as being typical of their type.

We usually reach a consensus at some point..

Regards

TM