Rfn Ernest Groves R7559 1/KRRC d. Loos 29 Sep 1916

[MBrockway]

Pals,

Rfn Ernest Groves R7559 of 1st Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps (1/KRRC) was killed during the Battle of Loos on 29 September 1916 [doh: that should have been 1915 ]. Presumably as part of "Carter's Force" - 3 btns detached from 2nd Division as reinforcements for 7th Division - during the repeated attacks on The Quarries.

Rfn Groves is commemorated on the Loos Memorial at the Dud Corner Cemetery, but is also one of the handful of names listed on the War Memorial in the tiny Cheshire village of Over Peover, where he came from, and which I drive past every morning. He is the only KRRC soldier on the monument, and, as you all know, I have a special interest in the KRRC via my grandfather.

I am hoping to place some "weather-proofed" basic information about Rfn Groves and the actions at The Quarries next to the Over Peover Memorial in time for the upcoming anniversary of his death on Saturday 29 Sep.

I think it would be a nice way of commemorating his sacrifice, and may be of interest to the locals and the village school is just opposite. My researchs point to there still being Groves living in the village. It would be nice for them to see that their relative is not forgotten.

I already have the info from CWGC, the KRRC Chronicle (1/KRRC's actions at Loos 1915 are actually in the 1916 volume BTW), and the excellent info from The Long, Long Trail on the Battle of Loos.

Could someone please help me out with a look-up on Soldiers Died in the Great War for Ernest Groves?

If it's not too cheeky, I'd appreciate a look-up also on Pte George Groves 39296, Royal Welsh Fusiliers d. 22 Dec 1917 apparently in Mesopotamia. He is also on the Over Peover War Memorial and in such a small village is highly likely to be a relation - probably his brother. This is much lower priority though, as it's Rfn Ernest Groves' anniversary I am working towards.

Many thanks in advance!

Cheers,

Mark

[jay dubaya]

Hi Mark

Ernest,

Born, Cheshire

Enlisted, Wilmslow, Ches.

Residence,.......

Killed in action

George,

Born, Higher Peover, Ches.

Enlisted, Knutsford

Residence,.......

'Died' in Mesopotamia

Hope this helps, and good luck on Saturday.

cheers, Jon

[Guest mruk]

Hello Mark,

As above [but 1915]. Ernest Groves was born in Cheshire, and enlisted in Wilmslow. Killed in Action in September 1915.

George Groves, of the 8th RWF, DIED in Mesopotamia. He was born in High Peover, Cheshire, and enlisted in Knutsford.

Good Luck with your research,

Dave

I'm assuming High Peover is in Cheshire. Very fast, Jon

[MBrockway]

Hi Mark

Ernest,

Born, Cheshire

Enlisted, Wilmslow, Ches.

Residence,.......

Killed in action

George,

Born, Higher Peover, Ches.

Enlisted, Knutsford

Residence,.......

'Died' in Mesopotamia

Hope this helps, and good luck on Saturday.

cheers, Jon

Now that's what I call fast!

Looks like George probably died from sickness rather than battle??

It's a pity there's not more information on Residence

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

I'm assuming High Peover is in Cheshire. Very fast, Jon

Lower Peover, Nether Peover, Over Peover and Peover Heath are a group of hamlets just south of Knutsford.

High Peover is the name of the parish ... aka Peover Superior ... and it is quite posh there these days - I bet that not many other commuters have to regularly break their drive to work to give way to a string of polo ponies like I have to

Also of possible interest to the Pals is that Over Peover contains Colshaw Hall, which I think was used as some sort of military hospital during the Great War. See this Nurses post.

I'll try and get some pics of the Over Peover War Memorial posted.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Here's a view of Over Peover Memorial from the web:

I'll try and get some close ups of the inscriptions for you all. Most of the rest of the men commemorated were from The Cheshires ... not surprisingly.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Pals,

Here are the details of the men commemorated on the Over Peover War Memorial:

Private Fred Edge EDWARDS, Cheshire Regiment

Rifleman Ernest GROVES. KRRC

Private George GROVES, Royal Welsh Fusiliers

Private Alfred HALE, Cheshire Regiment

Lieutenant Charles Asgill LOVER, North Staffs Regiment

Private William PEARCE, Border Regiment

Private William STREET, Manchester Regiment

Guardsman Wilfred TAYLOR, Grenadier Guards

I have a photo of the inscription, but won't be able to upload it until after the weekend.

I've started work on some research into the other men and I've also discovered another soldier buried in the Over Peover Parish Church:

Private J WHITLEY, 12122, 1st Bn. Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers; died 01 July 1915, aged 18 years; son of Eugene and Elizabeth Whitley, of Moy, Co. Tyrone.

Private Whitley seems a very long way from home, so I think I might look into him too.

This is what I have got on the other men on the Memorial so far (mainly from CWGC) ...

Private Fred Edge EDWARDS;

21575; 10th Bn. Cheshire Regiment

Died 17/07/1916, Aged 23

Son of John and Jane Edwards, of Long Lane, Over Peover, Cheshire.

Cemetery: PUCHEVILLERS BRITISH CEMETERY

Rifleman Ernest GROVES

R/7559; 1st Bn. King's Royal Rifle Corps

Died 29/09/1915, aged ~24

Cemetery: LOOS MEMORIAL

Private George GROVES

39296; 8th Bn. Royal Welsh Fusiliers

Died 22/12/1917, Aged 37

Son of Mr. and Mrs. Isaac Groves, of Over Peover, Knutsford, Cheshire.

Cemetery: BAGHDAD (NORTH GATE) WAR CEMETERY

Private Alfred HALE

25184; Cheshire Regiment; transf. to 247940, Labour Corps

Died 07/12/1918

Cemetery: OVER PEOVER (ST. LAWRENCE) CHURCHYARD

Lieutenant Charles Asgill LOVER

North Staffordshire Regiment, attached to York and Lancaster Regiment

Died 01/09/1918

Cemetery: OVER PEOVER (ST. LAWRENCE) CHURCHYARD

Private William STREET

5048, 13th Bn. Manchester Regiment

William;STREET; Died 25/04/1917

Aged 28

Son of John and Agnes Street, of Mainwaring Arms, Over Peover, Knutsford.

Cemetery: KARASOULI MILITARY CEMETERY, Greece

Guardsman Wilfred TAYLOR

26832, 2nd Coy. 3rd Bn.Grenadier Guards

Died 08/09/1917, Aged 19

Only son of James and Mary Emily Taylor, of Over Peover, Knutsford, Cheshire.

Cemetery: DOZINGHEM MILITARY CEMETERY

William PEARCE is proving more elusive! In CWGC I could only find one William PEARCE from the Border Regiment who did not have parents living outside Cheshire and that was ...

Private William PEARCE

19835, 1st Bn.Border Regiment

Died 22/10/1916, aged 24 [giving an approx birth year of 1892]

Husband of Dorothy Ellen Pearce, of 51, Cowper St., Gateshead-on-Tyne.

Married Oct, Nov or Dec 1913

THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

The mysterious part is that this man served under the alias of WALKER - intriguing. His MIC Index entry is under WALKER. There is a marriage entry in Oct-Dec 1913 for William Pearce and Dorothy Ellen Howlett in Gateshead, and I found a birth entry for a William Pearce in Sunderland Oct-Dec 1891, all of which suggests good roots in Tyneside ... and not Cheshire!

Some more digging needed here looks like

If anyone who's better at "driving" CWGC or SDGW can help with this William Pearce, I'd be grateful!

I left my little pack of information on Rfn Ernest Groves and 1/KRC attacks on the Hulluch Quarries during Loos attached to the Memorial this morning. Looking forward to seeing if it's been touched next week!

I shall be thinking of Rfn Groves tomorrow on the anniversary.

Cheers,

Mark

[John_Hartley]

Ernest's enlistment at Wilmslow suggests he's the E Groves on the town war memorial there (and the one at St bart's Church).

Forum member Jon Armstrong is researching the men on the town memorial and may have information about him.

John

(PS: There's a WW2 Frederick Groves on the Lower Peover memorial. Relative?)

[ralphjd]

SDGW. WILLIAM WALKER 19835 BORN THORNLEY DURHAM ENLISTED NEWCASTLE ON TYNE RESIDENT GATESHEAD kia 22-10-1916. Ralph.

[MBrockway]

Ernest's enlistment at Wilmslow suggests he's the E Groves on the town war memorial there (and the one at St bart's Church).

Forum member Jon Armstrong is researching the men on the town memorial and may have information about him.

John

(PS: There's a WW2 Frederick Groves on the Lower Peover memorial. Relative?)

Lots to add here

Ernest Groves, and, in fact, all the other names on the Over Peover Memorial are also recorded on the plaques inside the Memorial Hospital in Knutsford along with those from other villages in the Knutsford district. See this page on Carl's excellent Cheshire Memorials website here: Carl's Knutsford Memorial page

Carl's site also includes the Wilmslow War Memorial and the St Bartholomew's Church, Wilmslow, War Memorial, where you can see E Groves mentioned. The Church Memorial lists Rifleman Ernest Groves, KRRC, so this is almost certainly the same person as Over Peover.

I couldn't see any of the other Over Peover men mentioned on the Wilmslow memorials.

Knutsford and Wilmslow are very close and both very nearly equidistant from Over Peover.

On Frederick Groves, I haven't visited the Lower Peover Memorial yet (my commute goes through Lach Dennis!), but according to Carls' page for the Lower Peover Roll of Honour of those who served in WW2 in Lower Peover Church, you appear to be correct, though I note that Frederick Groves is not marked there as having died and is not mentioned on the WW2 additions to the Memorial outside.

The memorial will give me a fine excuse to visit the famous Bells of Peover inn!

The WW2 section of the Knutsford Plaque does also mention an "A Groves" from Mobberley. Mobberley is the opposite side of Knutsford to the Peovers, but nevertheless within 5 miles or so. This Groves is among the fallen though. If Frederick Groves from the Lower Peover RoH survived the war, then it's not surprising he is absent from the Knutsford WW2 plaque.

My researches so far threw up a fair few mentions of the Groves surname in the Knutsford area, and the modern phone book still has quite a few, many still in Knutsford and the surrounding villages. One is less than 600 yards from the Over Peover War Memorial. I'm a bit shy about approaching them though

Cheers,

Mark

PS Grateful thanks to Carl for his extremely useful site!

[MBrockway]

While looking at Carl's Lower Peover pages, I also noticed that our mysterious William PEARCE is also mentioned on the Lower Peover Memorial.

The extra information here is William PEARCE's date of death of 12th June 1915. This has to be useful in locating this elusive fellow!

Can anyone do a date-based look-up on SGDW for me? Or identify him by another route? William PEARCE is the only gap on the Over Peover Memorial at the moment!

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Yet another question - this is one for those with Cheshire local knowledge ...

I did a lookup on the UK National Inventory of War Memorials and found the following entry for the Over Peover War Memorial.

However from the map reference and directions information, this does not seem to be the same monument as we have been discussing above.

The directions place this one about 3-4km SE on the A535 in Withington Green.

The Map Reference of SJ 730 780 is miles away near the M6 Knutsford Services! However our Over Peover War Memorial is at SJ 787 730, so the UKNIWM data could be a transposed grid reference with some "rounding".

The UKNIWM description of the monument is a reasonable match to the "real" Over Peover monument (see the picture above) and the "real" monument has 8 soldiers mentioned with full names and regiments as stated on the UKNIWM.

Does anyone know anything about the memorial described on the UKNIWM? Or is this location info just duff?

Cheers,

Mark

PS I'm having trouble downloading my pictures from my swanky new camera phone, so I won't be uploading a picture of the inscription for a few days yet!

[linge]

Mark

Could this be your man?

PIERCE, WILLIAM ARTHUR

Initials: W A

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Corporal

Regiment/Service: Border Regiment

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Date of Death: 16/05/1915

Service No: 6066

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 19 and 20.

Memorial: LE TOURET MEMORIAL

Per SDGW

Born: Welshpool, Denbigh

Enlisted: Manchester

Residence: Lower Peover, Knutsford, Cheshire

Regards

Pam

[Dragon]

QUOTE

The Map Reference of SJ 730 780 is miles away near the M6 Knutsford Services!

This is not Over Peover. I would call it Over Tabley (Tabley Superior) though it borders on Tabley Inferior. I know the area extremely well. I can't think of a memorial there. One suggestion would be that the closest significant point to that grid reference might be Knutsford Cemetery, where there are a number of CWGC graves. I haven't seen a war memorial there, but I then haven't looked. (The Knutsford - Crosstown - war memorial is at the junction of Mobberley Road and Thorneycroft Drive.)

However, there is also a memorial in the private chapel at Tabley House, comemorating the staff who died in the war. I have a photo of it and can look to see whether the name appears. This is closest to the grid reference.

I wouldn't have said that the A535 meets Withington village anyway, but I don't know how it looks to a stranger. If you really want me to have a potter down the road I'll go and see whether there is indeed a memorial there.

Incidentally, do you mean Colshaw Hall? I thought that was near Wilmslow. The two halls that come to mind in Peover are Peover Hall and Radbroke Hall.

Gwyn

PS You could try emailing a letter to the Editor of the Knutsford Guardian and asking her to publish it. She's quite tame. She's published a fair amount of my incoherent ramblings.

[MBrockway]

This is not Over Peover. I would call it Over Tabley (Tabley Superior) though it borders on Tabley Inferior. I know the area extremely well. I can't think of a memorial there. One suggestion would be that the closest significant point to that grid reference might be Knutsford Cemetery, where there are a number of CWGC graves. I haven't seen a war memorial there, but I then haven't looked. (The Knutsford war memorial is at the junction of Mobberley Road and Thorneycroft Drive.)

However, there is also a memorial in the private chapel at Tabley House, comemorating the staff who died in the war. I have a photo of it and can look to see whether the name appears. This is closest to the grid reference.

I wouldn't have said that the A535 meets Withington village anyway, but I don't know how it looks to a stranger. If you really want me to have a potter down the road I'll go and see whether there is indeed a memorial there.

Incidentally, do you mean Colshaw Hall? I thought that was near Wilmslow. The two halls that come to mind in Peover are Peover Hall and Radbroke Hall.

Gwyn

PS You could try emailing a letter to the Editor of the Knutsford Guardian and asking her to publish it. She's quite tame. She's published a fair amount of my incoherent ramblings.

Thanks Gwyn,

I couldn't think of a memorial in Tabley either, though now you mention it, the former Knutsford Memorial Hospital is actually quite close as the last house in Knutsford on the N side of the road leading to Tabley Hall.

I think it is most likely a simple mistake - if you transpose the northing and the easting, you get a position that is very close to the real position of the real Over Peover Memorial.

I'm reluctant to ask you to hunt around Withington as I'm pretty certain it would be a wild goose chase ... although one wonders why the description is so specific about the A535 - which is really not that near to Over Peover village. Don't make a special trip unless that's very easy for you

If you're in Over Peover, feel free to have a look at my little Information Pack on Rfn Groves that I have left there.

Travelling from the Radbroke Hall direction, Colshaw Hall is on the left hand side (i.e. north) side of Stocks Lane just as you come round the bend into Over Peover village proper. The entrance drive opens about 500yds before the War Memorial. Grid SJ 782 742.

Are you thinking of Fulshaw Hall just south of Wilmslow? (You can tell I'm ex-ICI!!)

It would be very interesting to see if there is a death notice for Ernest Groves in the local Knutsford newspaper.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Mark

Could this be your man?

PIERCE, WILLIAM ARTHUR

Initials: W A

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Corporal

Regiment/Service: Border Regiment

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Date of Death: 16/05/1915

Service No: 6066

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 19 and 20.

Memorial: LE TOURET MEMORIAL

Per SDGW

Born: Welshpool, Denbigh

Enlisted: Manchester

Residence: Lower Peover, Knutsford, Cheshire

Regards

Pam

Bingo!

A few loose ends that ought to be checked out, e.g. difference in date of death, but the Residence is a very strong corroboration.

Also now I see the Welsh connection, I realise I should have looked for some alternative spellings - Pearce is probably the more common Welsh spelling, but spellings of surnames "standardised" much later in Wales than in England and he would have been unconcerned whether he was PEARCE or PIERCE.

Well done Pam!

Now I'll need to work out the Actions where each of these brave men fell.

Cheers,

Mark

[Dragon]

Travelling from the Radbroke Hall direction, Colshaw Hall is on the left hand side

Are you thinking of Fulshaw Hall

It would be very interesting to see if there is a death notice for Ernest Groves in the local Knutsford newspaper.

No, I'm not thinking of Fulshaw. There is a Colshaw on the other side of Wilmslow. I'd overlooked the farm in Peover called Colshaw Hall.

I meant that you could consider writing a letter to the KG for them to publish on their letters page, asking whether any readers have any information which might help. Re a death notice: the newspaper doesn't have its archives; they're in Knutsford Library.

Incidentally, I take it that 'your' war memorial is the one which has just been damaged?

Gwyn

Edited 2 October , 2007 by Dragon

[MBrockway]

Incidentally, I take it that 'your' war memorial is the one which has just been damaged?

Gwyn

Yes it is the same one.

I had noticed that some of the slabs of the supporting platform were missing last Friday when I left my pack about Rfn Groves, but I assumed they were being repaired ... although everything was in good order the first time I stopped to read the memorial properly a few weeks back.

Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine anyone would do anything so shocking as to steal parts of a war memorial. Words fail me.

Perhaps my little information pack on Ernest will show the villagers that there are those out there who still hold these memorials in respect, still understand what they are there for, and still remember the men who made the ultimate sacrifice.

Cheers,

Mark

[daggers]

Don't be too shy about contacting possible relatives of named war victims - I found a lot of goodwill and help when doing a similar exercise.

As to Peirce/Pierce etc.I have relatives (of long ago) and even wills containing both spellings.

Sorry to read about the desecration of the memorial.

Daggers

[MBrockway]

SDGW. WILLIAM WALKER 19835 BORN THORNLEY DURHAM ENLISTED NEWCASTLE ON TYNE RESIDENT GATESHEAD kia 22-10-1916. Ralph.

Thanks Ralph.

I think we can now eliminate this William PEARCE aka WALKER being our man. Particularly after Pam has found a Willaim PIERCE with connections to Over Peover.

Still ingriguing with the alias though eh??

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Forum member Jon Armstrong is researching the men on the [Wilmslow] town memorial and may have information about him.

John

Thanks John - I have just sent Jon a PM.

PS Found your own site a great inspiration. Good work.

Cheers,

Mark

[Dragon]

Re William Street. The Mainwaring Arms is now the Whipping Stocks. I've sent you a PM with more information, Mark.

Re William Pierce. I don't understand why he isn't listed in Kelly's Directories in any of the Peovers. Residents are listed by name, with domicile. I haven't checked later ones than the Great War period to see whether a Mrs Pierce is recorded. (I haven't got time to find my password at the moment!)

Gwyn

[MBrockway]

One for the KRRC regimental Service Number experts ...

Although Rfn Ernest Groves R/7559 served in 1/KRRC - one of the four regular battalions - he has an "R" prefixed Service Number, which I understood was only used by the volunteers who enlisted in K1, K2 and K3.

Also it is a fairly high number in the range. My own grandfather, Cpl John Brockway, was R/6479, which other Pals have told me probably means he enlisted in November 1914. He went on to serve in 12/KRRC and later 16/KRRC.

Does Rfn Groves' "R" prefix imply he was one of Kitchener's boys who was then drafted into one of the regular battalions?

Also does '7559' being higher than '6479' imply Ernest enlisted later than my grandfather (probably) after November 1914?

Lastly I don't suppose there's any way of finding Ernest's embarkation date without actually buying the PDF image of his MIC Index card ?

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Ernest's enlistment at Wilmslow suggests he's the E Groves on the town war memorial there (and the one at St bart's Church).

Forum member Jon Armstrong is researching the men on the town memorial and may have information about him.

John

(PS: There's a WW2 Frederick Groves on the Lower Peover memorial. Relative?)

Many thanks John.

Slowly adding more background to the eight Over Peover men - Rfn Ernest Groves married Elizabeth Timperley in 1913 at St Bartholomew's Church in Wilmslow.

He is definitely the same man as is recorded on the Wilmslow memorials.

I have spoken with Jon Armstrong as you suggested, but as yet he has not gathered any extra detail on Ernest Groves - he is focussing on the men of Styal to begin with. (Thanks for the info by the way Jon!).

I'm still trying to unravel the various Groves families in the Peover/Plumley/Wilmslow area with excallent assistance from Gwyn (Dragon) who has very kindly taken time out from Drill Hall research to dig about in Knutsford Library for me.

Cheers All!

Mark

[MBrockway]

I'll try and get some close ups of the inscriptions for you all.

Cheers,

Mark

As promised - here's a picture of the inscriptions:

Sorry it took so long - better late than never eh!

Cheers,

Mark