Early serge frock identification please.

[Toby Brayley]

Hello, 

 

Trying to I.D this serge frock, I hope the usual suspects will be able to help. 

 

Unusual CDV. Standing chap is from a Bedfordshire Volunteer unit (note the Volunteer Efficiency Star).  The seated chap possible I.Y?  wears an usual serge frock, note the rifle patches and rise and fall collar similar to the 1902 SD and not found on the 1899. Interestingly under magnification this frock has Victorian GS buttons. 

 

Many thanks in advance.

Toby

 

 

 

 

Edited 10 October , 2016 by Toby Brayley

[Muerrisch]

Strange absence of chest pockets and the Norfolk style pleats. I wonder if it is drab or what some call khaki, or is it scarlet [or indeed grey or .......?]

 

His companion has jampot cuffs so photo cannot be much more than a year or two later than 1902.

 

I wonder if it was an experimental issue to combat the cold nights on the Veldt ........... plenty of room for layers underneath.

 

I cannot find the like in "my extensive reference library" !

[Sepoy]

Here is a group of chaps from the 6th Battalion, East Surrey Regiment. Some are wearing similar frocks and others 1902 Pattern service dress.

Sepoy

[MBrockway]

Norfolk pleats remind me of the 1916 VTC uniform, and I note the felt hat was a permissible alternative to the "Military Peak Cap" shown below, but few of the other details actually match, so I post this more for wider interest than as a realistic answer to the OP here.

 

 

 

Mark

[Sepoy]

Here is a cropped group photo of the Sussex Volunteer Training Corps, showing a Volunteer (on our right) wearing the original pattern VTC uniform. It does look similar, but the tunic does not appear to have the side opening chest pockets or shoulder patches.

Sepoy

Edited 11 October , 2016 by Sepoy

[MBrockway]

... and I think knotwork at the cuff (signifying officers in the VTC regs) is incompatible with the closed collar (signifying NCO's and men in the VTC regs).

 

As I said, I posted more for wider interest and to rule it out rather than as a realistic match for our photo here.

 

Nice to collect Norfolk pleating examples in one place perhaps?

 

Mark

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, Sepoy said:

Here is a group of chaps from the 6th Battalion, East Surrey Regiment. Some are wearing similar frocks and others 1902 Pattern service dress.

Sepoy

Off topic, but I note these look like blackened rifles buttons here.  Is this what became the First Surrey Rifles (21 Londons)?  I don't have my books handy

 

Any chance of a zoom in to see if they might be the leather 'football' buttons instead? 

 

Mark

[Sepoy]

1 minute ago, MBrockway said:

Off topic, but I note these look like blackened rifles buttons here.  Is this what became the First Surrey Rifles (21 Londons)?  I don't have my books handy

 

Any chance of a zoom in to see if they might be the leather 'football' buttons instead? 

 

Mark

I think they are blackened rifles buttons, but it is not that clear in my original scan (The Sgt Instructor of Musketry may well be wearing football buttons). I will have to dig out the original photo to look.
The 1/21st (County of London) Battalion (First Surrey Rifles) are a different unit.
Sepoy
 

[Toby Brayley]

7 hours ago, Sepoy said:

Here is a group of chaps from the 6th Battalion, East Surrey Regiment. Some are wearing similar frocks and others 1902 Pattern service dress.

Sepoy

 Thanks gents. 

 

This does appear to be the same frock just minus the cuff detail. The chap seated front right gives a great study of the chest pocket! I wonder if this is some kind of unique Volunteer Tunic?? 

 

Toby 

[MBrockway]

Once I get back to my library I'll check my copy of Ian Beckett's Riflemen Form.  I think he may touch on this and there are certainly numerous RVC/VRC plates.

 

Pre-Childers, the rifle volunteers had a great deal of latitude on uniform.  They merely had to gain the approval of their local Lord Lieutenant.  Some rifle volunteer units maintained their own distinctive uniforms right through to 1908, while rifles buttons and different cap badges for rifles VF battalions in county regiments persisted into the war.

[MBrockway]

On 11/10/2016 at 02:07, Sepoy said:

I think they are blackened rifles buttons, but it is not that clear in my original scan (The Sgt Instructor of Musketry may well be wearing football buttons). I will have to dig out the original photo to look.
The 1/21st (County of London) Battalion (First Surrey Rifles) are a different unit.
Sepoy
 

Some digging on my hard drive has clarified matters ...

 

Some of these dates may be a year or two out.

 

First Surrey Rifles

1859 [VF & VRCs] 1st Surrey (South London) RVC (South London Rifles) - HQ at Camberwell
1860 absorbed 3rd Surrey RVC
1880 [RVC amalgamations] 1st Surrey (South London) RVC
1881-2 [Childers] 1st Surrey (South London) RVC [de facto, the 1st VB], East Surrey Regiment
1908 [Haldane] 21st London Regiment (1st Surrey Rifles) (TF)

6th East Surrey Regt

1859 [VF & VRCs] 6th, 9th, 12th & 15th Surrey RVC - HQ at ???
1880 [RVC amalgamations] 6th Surrey RVC,
1882? 6th renumbered as 5th Surrey RVC
1881-2 [Childers] 3rd VB, East Surrey Regiment
1908 [Haldane] 6th Bn,  East Surrey Regiment (TF)

 

... and of course the 6th East Surreys are another battalion with a rifles maltese cross cap badge sent to trap the unwary KRRC researcher

 

 

[Update: this is KK 1723.  For 6th East Surreys, Kipling & King also list a blackened version of the standard eight-pointed star as KK 1724, but no information on dates each was in use.]

 

Useful to know they were also in blackened buttons pre-War.  I've updated the Rifle Regiment Buttons topic accordingly.

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

 

Edited 13 October , 2016 by MBrockway

[wainfleet]

Some sort of trials uniform is my guess. A wide variety of types were tested prior to the adoption of Service Dress and TA units may have got lumbered with leftover stock.

[Toby Brayley]

That would be my guess at this stage, or a V/TF variant.  It's very similar to the 02, with the collar/ rifle patches ,  and very different to any preceding garments. I would be interested to find out it the cuff detail was unit specific.

Edited 14 October , 2016 by Toby Brayley

[MBrockway]

A trawl through my Rifle Volunteer material for 'Norfolk jacket' only turned up this on the 4th Administrative Battalion Lanark Rifle Volunteers, later the 29th LRV, and who eventually (1887) became the 5th VB of the Scottish Rifles ...

 

This rig was worn from 1871 to 1879 when the unit went into scarlet.

 

However the tunic in the accompanying plate (albeit somewhat sketchy) bears little resemblance to our photo.

 

I think the cuff detail of this type was fairly standard.

 

Mark

 

 

[MBrockway]

On 11/10/2016 at 11:56, MBrockway said:

Once I get back to my library I'll check my copy of Ian Beckett's Riflemen Form.  I think he may touch on this and there are certainly numerous RVC/VRC plates.

 

The plates in Riflemen Form do not show this jacket.

 

On pp.201-02 Ian records ...

"The Volunteer Force also pioneered more sensible uniforms, similarly praised by Wolseley [Field Marshal Sir Garnet Joseph Wolseley] as a 'pattern that all sensible men adopt for themselves when going out shooting, or on a walking tour, or when about to embark on any wild expedition where the necessity for great exertion is to be expected ...'.  In fact, in March 1883, a War Office Colour Committee recommended the grey uniform of the 3rd Devon Rifle Volunteers (formerly 1st Devon Administrative Battalion) as the pattern for the new service dress but, in the event, Indian Khaki was preferred.  The 1st Bucks. Volunteers was one of the first units to change to the new khaki field service dress in August 1901."

 

He cites as sources, the Volunteer Service Gazette 28 Aug 1869, p.612 and 31 Mar 1883 p.350

 

The Norfolk jacket with its generous fit and box pleats would certainly meet that description.

 

So far I cannot find a good picture of the 3rd Devonshire RV uniform mentioned.

 

Mark

 

 

 

[MBrockway]

Here's some Hansard discussion of the War Office Colour Committee's recommendation to adopt a grey service dress:

Hansard 1884

[FROGSMILE]

I have seen images of 1902 SD in grey (worn by a volunteer/yeomanry unit) and will see if I can obtain a copy.  It is clear that the Territorial County Associations purchased patterns of SD of their own preferred design between the end of the Boer War and the creation of the Territorial Force in 1908.  The uniform starting this thread appears to be one of them.

Edited 14 October , 2016 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Thank you for your input everyone, certainly a Volunteer in the photo. I can find no reference to this tunic for any of the I.Y of the period. They all had their own distinct "khaki" SD. 

 

I must admit I only purchased it because of the unique frock and the slouch hat! 

 

Regards

Toby 

[FROGSMILE]

On 10/14/2016 at 12:07, Toby Brayley said:

Thank you for your input everyone, certainly a Volunteer in the photo. I can find no reference to this tunic for any of the I.Y of the period. They all had their own distinct "khaki" SD. 

 

I must admit I only purchased it because of the unique frock and the slouch hat! 

 

Regards

Toby 

 

The Austrian knot indicates a Rifle Volunteer, definitely.  From memory there were at least four (possibly five) colours of flat cord used for these knots.

Edited 15 October , 2016 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Brilliant, thank you.

[Toby Brayley]

Another example featured in this large CDV, a recent addition to my collection.  2nd Volunteer Battalion of the ? 

 

[FROGSMILE]

I think it is a VB battalion that retained its own badge, Toby.  Using my thread counter glass the slouch badge looks like a small silver Maltese cross topped by a crown, no laurel wreath.  The legwear indicates a cyclist company.

Edited 9 March , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

Any chance of a close-up of belt buckle and buttons?

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

Any chance of a close-up of belt buckle and buttons?

 

I had a look at the belt buckle and it is the general service pattern, but I can't make out the buttons.

[Toby Brayley]

GS belt buckle, VR crown on it , buttons are also VR crowned GS.  So not much help, all I can make out on his shoulder is 2 V 

 

Thank you for the cyclist info! 

 

So far then we have Rifles and a cyclist wearing it!  I would say very early 1900s with the VR insignia and possibly that very sort space of time when the "Slouch " hat was universal headgear. 

Edited 9 March , 2017 by Toby Brayley