mike.backhouse Posted 11 September , 2009 Share Posted 11 September , 2009 Hello... This is my first post, so it could well be all over the place! I'm looking for illustrations of the 'battle badges' worn by the 20th (Light) Division. I'm particularly interested in 60th Brigade. Any help would be most welcome... Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 12 September , 2009 Share Posted 12 September , 2009 Welcome to the forum Archie I don't have any pics to hand, OK so I dabbled with paint but it's only for illustration and with artistic license all the battle patches of the division were black, the 59th Bde (circle), 60th Bde (triangle) and 61st Bde (square) the battalions in each brigade were ID by black dashes under the relevant brigade patch, cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Milner Posted 12 September , 2009 Share Posted 12 September , 2009 Jon Was the 12th Rifle Brigade a triangle and four bars. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 12 September , 2009 Share Posted 12 September , 2009 Yes it was John, black triangle with four bars below, cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.backhouse Posted 12 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 12 September , 2009 Welcome to the forum Archie I don't have any pics to hand, OK so I dabbled with paint but it's only for illustration and with artistic license all the battle patches of the division were black, the 59th Bde (circle), 60th Bde (triangle) and 61st Bde (square) the battalions in each brigade were ID by black dashes under the relevant brigade patch, cheers, Jon Jon, thanks for that... appreciate it. Do you know whether the Divisional sign was worn on the uniform, or just the Brigade badges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Milner Posted 12 September , 2009 Share Posted 12 September , 2009 Thank you Jon. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 12 September , 2009 Share Posted 12 September , 2009 I've never seen any evidence of the divisional badge being worn but that's not to say it wasn't, perhaps it would be wise to seek an expert on one of the divisional regiments who may have some photographic evidence. The only other additional information I have on the division is that the 11th Bn. DLI (Divisional Pioneers) wore a black diamond and all units wore the patches on the upper arm. cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.backhouse Posted 14 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2009 I've never seen any evidence of the divisional badge being worn but that's not to say it wasn't, perhaps it would be wise to seek an expert on one of the divisional regiments who may have some photographic evidence. The only other additional information I have on the division is that the 11th Bn. DLI (Divisional Pioneers) wore a black diamond and all units wore the patches on the upper arm. cheers, Jon Thanks Jon... That all help's. Bit slow in replying, still trying to figure out how the site works! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 15 September , 2009 Share Posted 15 September , 2009 Mike In the war some divisional signs were worn on uniform and/or helmets, and others were only used on signboards, divisional assets such as transport vehicles, etc. I am fairly confident that 20th Div falls into the latter category. In many years of collecting and perusing photos I've never seen one being worn or seen a surviving example. I tend to agree that only lower unit level patches would have been worn. Regards, W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.backhouse Posted 15 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2009 Mike In the war some divisional signs were worn on uniform and/or helmets, and others were only used on signboards, divisional assets such as transport vehicles, etc. I am fairly confident that 20th Div falls into the latter category. In many years of collecting and perusing photos I've never seen one being worn or seen a surviving example. I tend to agree that only lower unit level patches would have been worn. Regards, W. Thanks for that... I don't think I've come across an example either. With such a huge subject it's always useful to have extra pair's of eye's. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 23 September , 2009 Share Posted 23 September , 2009 Welcome to the forum Archie I don't have any pics to hand, OK so I dabbled with paint but it's only for illustration and with artistic license all the battle patches of the division were black, the 59th Bde (circle), 60th Bde (triangle) and 61st Bde (square) the battalions in each brigade were ID by black dashes under the relevant brigade patch, cheers, Jon Jon / Archie, Tocemma has posted a picture of an actual 12/KRRC patch on an officer's SD tunic here: 'Cloth Insignia', Information - Post #92 Here also for completeness is the 20th Division flash, though as already stated probably not worn on uniform: [from a Players cigarette card] When did these battle flashes begin to be worn? And would they be worn on all variants of the uniform? And when on Home Leave? I have a studio portrait of my grandfather (12/KRRC then later transferred to 16/KRRC) wearing a single LSGC chevron and a wound stripe giving a tentative date of late 1916, but he has no 12/KRRC battle flashes. Perhaps this absence of battle flashes could help me date the photo more accurately? If flashes were already in use by 20th Division by (say) mid 1916, then that could also mean he'd already transferred to 16/KRRC at the time of the photo. Sadly I expect use of flashes is a late War adoption so won't help me date either the photo or his transfer Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 20 December , 2009 Share Posted 20 December , 2009 Welcome to the forum Archie I don't have any pics to hand, OK so I dabbled with paint but it's only for illustration and with artistic license all the battle patches of the division were black, the 59th Bde (circle), 60th Bde (triangle) and 61st Bde (square) the battalions in each brigade were ID by black dashes under the relevant brigade patch, cheers, Jon Hello Jon, Thanks for the information and drawings. My Men-At-Arms series #182 (British Battle Insignia) states that under the Brigade circle, triangle or square, units were identified by 1 to 4 dashes, however, according to the Wikipedia 20th (Light) Division, both the 59th and 61st Brigades (over the course of the war) 5 different battalions. (61st-7/SLI, 7/DCLI, 7/KOYLS, 11/DLI and 12/Liverpool, 59th-10/KRRC, 11/KRRC, 10/RB,11/RB and 2/Cameronians). My questions are: When one Battalion joined the Brigade, did it did it assume the battle flash of the one leaving? How did they determine which unit got how many dashes? (by date entering the Brigade or other). Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolfi Posted 12 January , 2010 Share Posted 12 January , 2010 Just to add that the divisional RE and RAMC wore battle insignia too. The engineers wore a red triangle with black bars below. The field ambulances a dull cherry disc also with black bars below. Is that it; or are there more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 12 January , 2010 Share Posted 12 January , 2010 Welcome to the forum Archie I don't have any pics to hand, OK so I dabbled with paint but it's only for illustration and with artistic license all the battle patches of the division were black, the 59th Bde (circle), 60th Bde (triangle) and 61st Bde (square) the battalions in each brigade were ID by black dashes under the relevant brigade patch, cheers, Jon Hello Jon, How many dashes would the 7/SLI have had below its square? Any idea when they started wearing the battle flash? Can you tell me how the number of dashes each battalion received was determined? Thanks and cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_H Posted 13 January , 2010 Share Posted 13 January , 2010 Bill The 7th Somerset L I wore 2 bars below their 61st Bde Square. The number of bars was determined by the regiment's Army List Seniority and then if 2 battalions of the same regiment are in the same brigade by seniority within the regiment. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 13 January , 2010 Share Posted 13 January , 2010 Bill The 7th Somerset L I wore 2 bars below their 61st Bde Square. The number of bars was determined by the regiment's Army List Seniority and then if 2 battalions of the same regiment are in the same brigade by seniority within the regiment. Mike Thank you for that Mike. It clears up what I was looking for! Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 3 February , 2010 Share Posted 3 February , 2010 .. .. When did these battle flashes begin to be worn? And would they be worn on all variants of the uniform? And when on Home Leave? I have a studio portrait of my grandfather (12/KRRC then later transferred to 16/KRRC) wearing a single LSGC chevron and a wound stripe giving a tentative date of late 1916, but he has no 12/KRRC battle flashes. Perhaps this absence of battle flashes could help me date the photo more accurately? If flashes were already in use by 20th Division by (say) mid 1916, then that could also mean he'd already transferred to 16/KRRC at the time of the photo. .. .. Cheers, Mark Pals, Since this Topic has revived I wonder if anyone has any info on when these battle flashes began to be worn on uniforms? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 3 February , 2010 Share Posted 3 February , 2010 Pals, Since this Topic has revived I wonder if anyone has any info on when these battle flashes began to be worn on uniforms? Cheers, Mark Ha! No sooner do I post the above when I find the similar Topic about 20th (Light) Division brigade flashes where Mike_H states ... Bill <snip> Re the date the scheme of flashes was adopted - I have found nothing to suggest that it was in use before very late 1917 or early 1918. Mike Any more info on thisfrom any other Pal?? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 8 February , 2016 Share Posted 8 February , 2016 Welcome to the forum Archie I don't have any pics to hand, OK so I dabbled with paint but it's only for illustration and with artistic license all the battle patches of the division were black, the 59th Bde (circle), 60th Bde (triangle) and 61st Bde (square) the battalions in each brigade were ID by black dashes under the relevant brigade patch, cheers, Jon Bill The 7th Somerset L I wore 2 bars below their 61st Bde Square. The number of bars was determined by the regiment's Army List Seniority and then if 2 battalions of the same regiment are in the same brigade by seniority within the regiment. Mike In which case wouldn't 10/KRRC as the senior battalion in 59 Brigade use a single horizontal bar under a circle, not two bars, which should be 11/KRRC? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 8 February , 2016 Share Posted 8 February , 2016 12 KRR helmet which I used to own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 8 February , 2016 Share Posted 8 February , 2016 12 KRR helmet which I used to own. Many many thanks for sharing this Wainfleet - my grandfather's battalion. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 8 February , 2016 Share Posted 8 February , 2016 If only I'd known that I'd have offered it to you! I can't remember who bought it now, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KENDO Posted 9 February , 2016 Share Posted 9 February , 2016 Hi Does anyone know the colours of the MG coys and the TMBs ? Regards Kendo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLind87 Posted 6 January , 2017 Share Posted 6 January , 2017 Hi, Has anyone seen/have photographic evidence of this scheme in use? I know several are listed in the IWM collections, along with images of an extant tunic featuring these on this forum, as well as the helmet above - but can we actually place these on members of the division in period images? A tall order, I know, but hopefully someone can shed some light! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now