Rifleman Thomas Flint - Artists Rifles !

[ian jackson]

Hi

I have been researching my great grandfather, Thomas Flint, a Salford man, who was killed in the First World War, and have come across a few questions that I wondered if anyone could help me with? His details are listed on the CWG site and are as follows ;

T. Flint - Rifleman B/201471 - 1st/28th Bn, London Regt (Artists Rifles) KIA 2nd April 1918. Age 37, Forceville Communal Cemetry, Somme, France.

From information on the medal Index cards, he is listed with two service numbers, firstly in the ASC as Private M/2/103534, and then as Rifleman B/201471, and he landed in France on 22/8/1915.

The strange thing is, despite having copies of two letters written to my great grandmother by his commanding officer, and his chaplain, both serving members of the Artists Rifles, and the fact that he is also on the Artist Rifles roll of honour website, he does not exist in the AR Regimental Roll of Honour and War Record published in 1922 at all. On his gravestone it does refer to his regiment as the Artists Rifles too. According to the AR war diary for the 2nd April, the battalion was resting in Forceville on the 1st and 2nd April before returning to the front line. The letter from his Chaplain says he was killed by shell fire whilst asleep in his billet. This would seem to place him in the right area and time for burial in the cemetry.

Oddly on his war record on Ancestry.com, He is listed as a rifleman serving in the Prince Consorts Own (which i think is the 16th Rifle Brigade). However, this is definately the correct soldier as this is how I found his ASC number too.

i'm confused........to say the least !

I was hoping that someone may be able to shed any light on these anomalies, or indeed, provide any information at all they think may be relevant to my grandad, and his war service. I can send copies of both letters, and also a photograph of him if that would be any help ?

Kind Regards

Ian Jackson

[halifax]

Hi Ian found this on the Artist Rifles Association website;

FORCEVILLE COMMUNAL CEMETERY AND EXTENSION - Somme

FLINT, Rifleman, T, B/201471. 1st/28th Bn. London Regiment (Artists' Rifles). Killed in action 2nd April 1918. Age 37. Son of Thomas and Mary Ann Flint, of Salford, Manchester Plot3.RowE.Grave8

Steve

[stiletto_33853]

Ian,

Before he went to the Artist's Rifles he was in a group of R.A.S.C. men that were transferred to The Rifle Brigade, from there they went to the Artist's Rifles, all of them.

Andy

[ian jackson]

Steve & Andy, thats fantastic, thank you so much for such a fast reply !

I just looked on the CWGC site and saw that two of my grandads five "friends" that were transferred with him on that transfer document were killed on the 30th October 1917 (C Lewis & W Greenwood) on the attack on Passchendaele. Also, none of them are mentioned in the AR War Record or Roll of honour book either !

I do remember my great nan ( she died when i was very young) telling me that Tommy fought at Passchendaele in a sea of mud. It's amazing ! I have been trying to find information for literally 3 years and in the space of a week find out so much. Thank you.

Is there by any chance a transfer date anywhere on that document (and where did it come from!) ?

Many thanks

Ian

[stiletto_33853]

Ian,

This document comes from the Rifle Brigade medal rolls, your great grandfathers number was recognizable as a Rifle Brigade number so it was a quick cross reference with a database that I have to find the relevant page in the rolls. Unfortunately I am unable to tell you exactly transfer dates but this number sequence did not start appearing until the latter half of 1916.

Andy

[ian jackson]

Thanks Andy, your help is very much appreciated.

Would any one have any idea on why my great grandfathers name would not be mentioned in the AR Roll of honour book? None of the other reinforcements names are in there either !

Also, can anyone shed any light onto service records, photos or indeed any thing else I may find interesting in connection to the AR, the Rifle Brigade or Rifleman Flint ?

Cheers

Ian

[stiletto_33853]

Ian,

I was just wondering if the AR roll does not carry men that were attached to the battalion as a lot of the RB men serving with the Regiments Territorial affiliate units were attached rather than transferred. Just a thought.

Andy

[ian jackson]

Thanks Andy, here is a picture of Thomas that i've managed to scan ( i hope!)

I have a pdf of his MIC but it is not a very good copy and I cannot seem to put it on here !

Here is the info again " Private M/2/103534, then Rifleman B/201471, qualifying date 22.8.15

It has him listed with three medals, the Victory and British (Which have a .x. next to them and the roll number m/102 & B/12 and the star (which looks like it has a "15" written in front of it and roll number M/1c (i think)

I dont know if that is any more help iin trying to find things like his movement, enlistment, battles etc?

Ps I really do appreciate the help and advice, as i am a bit of an amateur at all this This is the second time I have tried to research his war service and I have learnt so much through the forum. I have also managed to track down a memorial service pamphlet from his local church in salford, who I have contacted and he is on their Roll of honour to the fallen. I hope to get some pictures later this week.

Regards

Ian

[stiletto_33853]

Ian,

The 1914/15 Star roll reference to C shows that he was in the C section of the last roll of the Rifle Brigade 14/15 star rolls which contains 99 pages of men transferred from other units to the Rifle Brigade, all who were issued with the B prefix 6 number sequence and they came from all sorts of units. In this case it is page 12.

Andy

[ian jackson]

Andy

Many thanks for the information you have provided, it really is invaluable; From what I can gather, this is the info I have so far;

Thomas Flint (Salford) - Joined Army Service Corps (transport) and was based in Aldershot with a Regt number M2/103534. He embarked to France on 22-8-15. Transferred to Rifle Brigade (Prince Consorts Own) with a new regt number B/201471 in Late 1916. Then attached to 1/28th Artists Rifles and Killed in action on 2-4-18 at Forceville. I have a copy of letters written to Tommy's wife by a captain J E Prentis (1st Artists Rifles) and also his regimental chaplain, Basil c. Robinson. Attached is a better copy of the MIC

Would it be possible that anyone at all may be able to shed any more light on any details at all based on this information given, to any more clues, such as actual battalions, Jobs roles, whereabouts etc. Any information, no matter how slight, would be of enormous help to me.

Many, many thanks

Ian

[MelPack]

Ian

I have had a look at sample ASC service papers for you in the M2/ 1030** - 1036** series.

All were Kitchener volunteers enlisted throughout the country during the first week in June 1915 and reported for duty in the same week to the Grove Park MT Reserve Depot.

As you would expect with a Corps such as the ASC, no pattern can be discerned from the distribution of men with close numbers.

M2/103209 enlisted on 1/6/15 and was sent to France on 8/8/16

M2/103479 enlisted on 2/6/15 and was sent to Salonika

M2/103539 was sent to Egypt landing on 20/12/15.

All these men were enlisted for motor transport and with the primary emphasis upon the same, very little time was given to basic military training. Your GG's transfer into an infantry unit is slightly unusual.

Regards

Mel

[MBrockway]

Ian,

Before he went to the Artist's Rifles he was in a group of R.A.S.C. men that were transferred to The Rifle Brigade, from there they went to the Artist's Rifles, all of them.

Andy

Andy,

Is it significant that the Rifle Brigade BWM medal roll does not mention the specific RB battalion for these men?

Could they have been attached to the Artist's Rifles almost immediately after being transferred from the ASC and were never formally posted to an RB non-territorial battalion?

I don't know how the rolls handle the RB territorials - as you know, the KRRC didn't have that set up!

Cheers,

Mark

PS Hope you're well!

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Mark,

None of this little group of ASC men transferred into the RB went to batttalion as you point out. My feeling is that they went to the Artist's rifles which was a territorial affiliate of the Rifle Brigade.

The actual Territorial battalions of the Rifle Brigade (18th to 25th) had very little to do with the Rifle Brigade, being managed through the City of London Territorial Association and the London Record Office being ex National Reserve men. These were Rifle Brigade battalions in name only, when these battalions were made up the only Regiments that did not have Territorials or territorial areas of recruitment were the Guards, K.R.R.C. & R.B., the Director of Personnel Services suggested they were placed under the R.B. banner.

Mel,

Quite or few Corps men found there way into line regiments around 1918, the RB medal rolls record men from the A.S.C., R.G.A., R.E., R.A.M.C., A.V.C. and a few others, shortage of troops one would imagine. You can find these men in the number blocks denoting men transferred from other units.

Andy

[MelPack]

Andy

I can understand the context of transfers from other Corps in 1918 but this block transfer occurred at least before October 1917. The transfer from the ASC may suggest a draft reinforcement for the transport section of the Battalion?

Regards

Mel

[MBrockway]

Hi Mark,

None of this little group of ASC men transferred into the RB went to batttalion as you point out. My feeling is that they went to the Artist's rifles which was a territorial affiliate of the Rifle Brigade.

The actual Territorial battalions of the Rifle Brigade (18th to 25th) had very little to do with the Rifle Brigade, being managed through the City of London Territorial Association and the London Record Office being ex National Reserve men. These were Rifle Brigade battalions in name only, when these battalions were made up the only Regiments that did not have Territorials or territorial areas of recruitment were the Guards, K.R.R.C. & R.B., the Director of Personnel Services suggested they were placed under the R.B. banner.

Andy

Andy - my thoughts exactly!

The territorials aspects of the King's Royal Rifle Corps and The Rifle Brigade are a bit confusing, so maybe it'd be worth putting in some notes here ...

As Andy says, the KRRC, RB and Guards did not have Territorial Force battalions in 1914.

However prior to the 1908 Haldane Reforms, the KRRC and RB did have affiliated battalions in the Volunteer Force. These mostly had their origins in the Volunteer Rifle Corps (VRC) movement dating back to 1859 (though some of these volunteer units go back considerably further), and being rifles units it was natural to become affiliated to one of the two line rifles regiments.

When the Territorial Force was set up in 1908 under the Haldane Reforms, the London-based Volunteer Force units were all rolled up together into the new London Regiment - an all territorial unit. These included the units that had formerly been affiliated to the KRRC and the RB (as well as inter alia the Royal Fusiliers, Middlesex, East Surrey, Surrey and Royal West Kent regiments).

I'll try and give a simplified list of these pre-1908 rifles affiliations ....

London Regiment units affiliated to KRRC pre-1908

5th LR (London Rifle Brigade) - !!! [in 1937 the LRB were re-affiliated to the RB (not the KRRC!)]

6th LR (Rifles)

7th LR

9th LR (Queen Victoria's Rifles) [the 1st Middlesex VRC part]¹

11th LR (Finsbury Rifles)

12th LR (The Rangers aka Central London Rangers)

13th LR (Kensington)

15th LR (Civil Service Rifles)

16th LR (Queen's Westminster Rifles)

London Regiment units affiliated to The RB pre-1908

8th LR (Post Office Rifles)

9th LR (Queen Victoria's Rifles) [the 19th Middlesex VRC part]¹

10th LR (Paddington Rifles) - disbanded in 1912

14th LR (London Scottish)

17th LR (Poplar & Stepney Rifles)

18th LR (London Irish Rifles)

25th LR (Cyclist)

28th LR (Artists' Rifles) - hence Rfn Flint's transfer as described above

¹9th LR (Queen Victoria's Rifles aka QVR) was formed by the merger of 1st and 19th Middlesex VRCs, which were affiliated to the KRRC and the RB respectively, so I've put it in both lists. The QVR was re-affiliated to the KRRC prior to WW2. The QWR and CSR merged in 1921, was re-affiliated to the KRRC, and eventually merged with the QVR in 1961.

When the London Regiment ceased to exist between the wars, many of these territorial units re-established the pre-1908 links to their original line regiments, though this was complicated because some of these units had merged since 1908. Some units had very bizarre fates - The Post Office Rifles became an anti-aircraft artillery unit for example! Likewise some of these units were the results of mergers in the second half of the 19th century, so the real picture is a bit more complex than above - apologies to the Pals for any errors!

Thus the KRRC and the RB both started the War with no territorial battalions. In 1915 however it was decided to form spare National Reservists into completely new Territorial Force units for garrison service overseas. As Andy says, the powers on high then decided to badge these new TF battalions as the 18th - 25th battalions of The Rifle Brigade, and, as Andy also says, these extra battalions were never really properly absorbed into the rifles family.

Unusually all of these new TF battalions were allocated only to The Rifle Brigade - the KRRC did not get any of them. Generally whatever happened to the one regiment was repeated in the other, and that in this case it didn't, is perhaps indicative of how artificial this RB affiliation really was.

That said, the KRRC raised several more Pals-type battalions than The Rifle Brigade and already had three extra Service battalions (18/KRRC, 20/KRRC, 21/KRRC) and formed 25/KRRC later.

One last point: there is often confusion between the 16th (Service) Battalion (St Pancras) of The Rifle Brigade and 19th Battalion (St Pancras) of the London Regiment - these were entirely separate battalions! Andy gave a lot of detail on this in another Topic if you do a Search.

I hope this makes some sort of sense to everybody and it helps clarify the links between the KRRC/RB and the London Regiment units all in one place.

Cheers,

Mark

[stiletto_33853]

Mel,

I would agree with you 100%, these B 6 figure number prefix men started appearing in the late 1916. A 6 figures in the case of the KRRC.

Mark, there was also a 17th Battalion of the Rifle Brigade from the same area as the 16th but never saw service overseas, you often see it mentioned in RB service records. Quite a few of the battalions of the London Regiment that you mention became Territorial battalions of the RB & KRRC in 1916.

Andy

[MBrockway]

Mark, there was also a 17th Battalion of the Rifle Brigade from the same area as the 16th but never saw service overseas, you often see it mentioned in RB service records. Quite a few of the battalions of the London Regiment that you mention became Territorial battalions of the RB & KRRC in 1916.

Andy

Cheers Andy!

Now you mention it, you told me about the 17/RB in that earlier Topic we had about the 16th Rifle Brigade (St Pancras) and the "P" Prefix:

Phillip Mawbey, 16th & 17th RB, St Pancras and the "P" Prefix

Good point too about the 1916 re-affiliations, I'd forgotten that.

Checking back in Wallace's The King's Royal Rifle Corps ... the 60th Rifles - A Brief History: 1755 to 1965, he has twelve London-based Volunteer Rifle Corps designated as KRRC volunteer battalions as part of the Childers Reforms in 1881, reducing to ten by 1904. Sadly he doesn't list them! Most unhelpful as my list only has nine!

He goes on to confirm your point stating that the pre-1908 affiliations were restored in July 1916 - though he then lists only six London Regiment battalions returning to the KRRC ...

• 6th LR (City of London Rifles)
• 9th LR (Queen Victoria's Rifles)
• 11th LR (Finsbury Rifles)
• 12th LR (The Rangers)
• 15th LR (Civil Service Rifles)
• 16th LR (Queen's Westminster Rifles)

I'm guessing that 5th LR (London Rifle Brigade) went to The Rifle Brigade, but so far I've not found out what happened to the 7th LR and 13th LR (Kensington Rifles)

Not a dicky bird about these LR battalions in either the 1916 KRRC Chronicle nor the KRRC Annals Great War volume!

I have another source, which Prof Ian Becket put me on to when I was trying to find out more about the Volunteer League of the British Empire, the Volunteer Training Corps and the Rifle Volunteer Corps !!

This gives an unattributed list of the Volunteer Force battalions designated to the line Regiments under Childers in 1881 with ...

KRRC

1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 12th, 13th, 21st, 22nd, 25th, 26th & 27th Middlesex VRC

1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th London VRC

[Total - 17]

The Rifle Brigade

7th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 24th Middlesex VRC

2nd Tower Hamlets VRC

[Total - 9]

You'll see the KRRC total of 17 differs from Wallace's 12 :-(

For a while now, I've been trying to build an accurate cross-reference between these VRC units, their KRRC/RB designated Volunteer Battalion number and their eventual post-Haldane London Regiment battalion.

This has proved somewhat troublesome! Here's my current version, but be warned, it's very much a work in progress, with lots of gaps and needing further corroboration/correction

KRRC

Middlesex VRC battalions

1st (Victoria Rifles) = 4th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 9th Btn, London Regt (Queen Victoria's Rifles) [+ 6 & 19 Mdx VRC]

2nd (S Middlesex) = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> 13th Btn, London Regt (Kensington Rifles) [+4th Mdx VRC]

4th (W London) = 3rd Vol Btn., KRRC -> 13th Btn, London Regt (Kensington Rifles) [+2nd Mdx VRC]

5th (W Middlesex) = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> ?? Btn, London Regt

6th (St George's) = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> 9th Btn, London Regt (Queen Victoria's Rifles) [+ 1 & 19 Mdx VRC]

9th (Harrow) = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> ?? Btn, London Regt

12th = 5th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 15th Btn, London Regt (PoW's Own Civil Service Rifles)

13th = 6th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 16th Btn, London Regt (Queen's Westminster Rifles)

21st = 7th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 11th Btn, London Regt (Finsbury Rifles)

22nd = 8th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 12th Btn, London Regt (The Rangers)

25th (Bank of England) = Vol Btn., KRRC -> Btn, London Regt (

26th = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> 25th Btn, London Regt (Cyclist) [elsewhere shown as affiliated to Rifle Brigade]

27th = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> ?? Btn, London Regt

London VRC battalions

1st = 9th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 5th Btn, London Regt (London Rifle Brigade)

2nd = 10th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 6th Btn, London Regt (City of London Rifles)

3rd = 11th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 7th Btn, London Regt

4th = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> ?? Btn, London Regt [no record elsewhere of this unit]

The Rifle Brigade

Middlesex VRC battalions

7th = 1st Vol Btn., RB -> 14th Btn, London Regt (London Scottish)

14th = ?? Vol Btn., RB -> 27th Btn, London Regt (Inns of Court) [redesignated Inns of Court OTC]

15th (Customs & Docks) = ?? Vol Btn., RB -> 17th Btn, London Regt (Poplar & Stepney Rifles)

16th = 3rd Vol Btn., RB -> 18th Btn, London Regt (London Irish Rifles)

18th = 4th Vol Btn., RB -> 10th Btn, London Regt (Paddington Rifles) [disbanded 1912]

19th (Bloomsbury) = 6th?? Vol Btn., RB -> 9th Btn, London Regt (QVR) [+ 1 & 6 Mdx VRC]

20th = 6th?? Vol Btn., RB -> 28th Btn, London Regt (Artists' Rifles)

24th = 7th Vol Btn., RB -> 8th Btn, London Regt (Post Office Rifles)

Tower Hamlets VRC battalion

2nd Tower Hamlets VRC = 9th Vol Btn., RB -> 17th Btn, London Regt (Poplar & Stepney Rifles)

All corrections welcome!

Cheers,

Mark

[stiletto_33853]

Mark,

We are getting a little way away from the topic theme here, and, I would hate to detract from Ian's valuable thread. Michael Haines (ex RB Officer) wrote quite a bit on the Militia, Volunteer & Territorial Regiments and The Middlesex Volunteer Rifle Corps in 1989, which I have. You are right about the LRB becoming a Territorial Battalion of The Rifle Brigade in 1916 and in 1941 it became the 7th & 8th Rifle Brigade (Prince Consorts Own) (London Rifle Brigade).

Andy

[MBrockway]

Mark,

We are getting a little way away from the topic theme here, and, I would hate to detract from Ian's valuable thread.

..

Andy

Very good point Andy - and you know how much I've bent your ear off the Forum in the past about threads being hijacked!

Perhaps I should start a new Topic covering these RB/KRRC/London Regiment links - they seem to raise Qs pretty often and they've certainly bamboozled me , so having it all in one Topic could be a good reference point for the Pals. I hadn't met to get so stuck in on this here!

Is there a simple way of copying the relevant posts out of this Topic with your Moderator superpowers?

Incidentally, I see Mr Baker has just added re-vamped material about the TF on the mother site - Territorial Force - where he states the Guards, KRRC and RB did not have any affiliated Territorial Force battalions during the War. Clearly after 1916 the rifles regiments in fact did - albeit rather against their will.

Might seem a minor point, but it does impact Service Numbers and such like. Do you think it's worth raising with him?

Ian - apologies for expanding out rather beyond the Artists' Rifles! Hope you haven't minded too much!

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Pals,

Following on from Andy's very valid suggestion, I've started a new Topic here:

London Regiment's former Volunteer Rifle Corps units, Links between LR, KRRC and Rifle Brigade to capture the more general points about the connections between the London-based Volunteer Rifle Corps units, the post-1908 London Regiment, the KRRC and The Rifle Brigade.

Can you please make future posts that are not specifically about Rfn Thomas Flint in this new Topic please please!

We should then end up with a useful general Topic that'll be a handy summary of this frustratingly confusing subject

Once again, apologies to Ian for the near-hijack!

Cheers,

Mark

[ian jackson]

Guys

Far from it. I have found all this info both fascinating and very useful. I was pleased to hear my GGF enlisted as a volunteer too.

Brill stuff, and much appreciated

Cheers

Ian