Info required on Grandfather Rifle Brigade (London)

[roy mawbey]

Hi all,

My first topic and probably a hard one for anyone to answer! My Grandfather Phillip Horace Mawbey was born in Camberwell London (then Surrey ) in 1879 and served in WW1. I never had the chance to meet him and my Grandmother died the same year as I was born in 1943.

According to my oldest Aunt ( Grandfathers eldest daughter ), she advised he served in WW1 and was wounded in the Somme battle and was caught in no-mans land for 3 days. She said he could no longer continue with his work as an Art restorer when he returned home.

The Mawbey family were like a closed book with regard to what he did or where he went on his return. My father rarely mentioned his name likewise his three sisters.

I have often wondered since they are all gone now what actually happened to him. I have started my research and he is fully listed with the family through all the census returns. ( Except in 1901 the people who entered their names missed out the "E" in Mawbey. That took me a long time to establish.)

He was married on the 6/12/02 and was living then at 31 HernHill Road, East Brixton. I also have Munster Road and Ulver Road Putney as houses my Grandmother lived in the early 1900's

I was told by my aunt my Grandfather joined up in 1914.

When I tried entering his name for a medal card, no entries. So I tried Phillip H Mawby and I was able to obtain one. Below the details:

Phillip H Mawby Rifle Brigade Regimental No. P/1479 A/lcp ? ( difficult to understand the handwriting )

The only medal he was awarded was the Victory medal Roll M/102B10 Page 1361 ( why no other service medals??)

I have seen the Rifle Brigade fought at the Somme in July 1914 at Gommecourt Park and wonder if he was there? (My aunt told me after the 3 days lying in no-mans land he was badly sunburned as well as badly wounded.) Mind you she also thought he was an officer!!

As the Rifle Brigade seemed to be formed in London then to me it seems thats where he was. Now I really would like to know anything that might clarify this. It would seem they fought very bravely on the first day of battle.

I can't upset anyone by asking, as they are all long gone now but my Brother and I often wonder what happened to him during WW1.

I don't really expect anyone can help but thought the forum might offer a slim chance on any info at all.

Thanks

Roy Mawbey

[sotonmate]

Roy

Welcome to the Forum

You might get your answers in bits here from different people. The first thing to say is that he wouild have recieved two medals as the British War and the Victory Medals were a pair, which if you won one you won the other. They were listed on the Medal Rolls together and issued together. If you have any details from the Medal Index Card it will show you the reference of these Rolls and you can learn which Battalion he was in from them.

Sotonmate

[roy mawbey]

Hi Soton,

Many thanks for that, I didn't know the two medals British war and Victory were given together! I have the roll number M/102b10 on the medal sheet which I will look up for the battalion.

great, thanks again!

Roy

[sotonmate]

Roy

I took a look at which units attacked at Gommecourt on 1 July 1916. There were two Divisions involved, the 46th (which had no units of the Rifle Brigade), and the 56th (which did). That Division had a full title of 56th(1/1 London)Division TF. 169 Brigade of the Division had a Battalion called the 1/5th London(Rifle Brigade). As that is the only one of such a name there I suggest that this is his Bn. Other Bns of the Brigade were various other Londons,as seen below.

You could check this from the Medal Rolls. If it is correct you can get to read the War Diary and then you will know what happened at the time.

I will now add the text from a book on the battles of the Somme for this attack. It is from "The Somme-A Day-by-Day Account" by Chris McCarthy:

"VII CORPS - ATTACK ON GOMMECOURT. 56 DIVISION.

At 7.20 a.m. smoke was released from the left of the line and under cover of this the attacking troops formed up in No Man's Land.

168 and 169 Brigades: At zero hour 168 Brigade attacked with 1/14th London(Scottish), 1/12th London(Rangers),1/13th London(Kensington),and 1/4th London in support;169 Brigade attacked with 1/9th London (Queen Victoria's Rifles),1/5th London(Rifle Brigade),and 1/16th London(Queen's Westminster Rifles)in support.

The wire was cut sufficiently to cause the attacking troops little trouble. The first two lines of trenches were taken with comparitively little loss. Nameless Farm,however,stayed in German hands and the third line was gained only after a fight. Bombers of 1/16th London reached it via a cemetery,but were wiped out.

The attacking troops,and two companies of 1/4th and 1/16th London sent up to support them,were now cut off by the German counter barrage on their old front line and No Man's Land,and carrying parties could not reach them.

The Germans continued to counter-attack with an intense artillery barrage and bombs. Most damaging was the fire from a single or pair of light field guns 3000 yards away in Puisieux Valley. At approximately 9 a.m. half a company of Kensingtons with a London Scottish machine gun crew managed to reach the London Scottish. These were the last reinforcements received. At 9.30 a.m.a large party of bombers was sent to help the Queen's Westminsters in attacking the Quadrilateral. They ran into the German counter barrage in No Man's Land and mostly became casualties. At 2.p.m.two companies of 1/2nd London(169 Brigade) attempted to reinforce but were cut down by machine gun fire from the Park.

By 2.p.m.168 and 169 Brigades were holding the first and second lines. By 4 p.m. the second line had fallen. At 9.30 p.m. the last of the Londoners withdrew,suffering heavy casualties inNo Man's Land. "

What a grim story.

Sotonmate

[RobertBr]

Roy

See Gommecourt for more information on the battle.

Bob

[zippy.72]

There is quite a lot of info on the London Division in the Battleground Series book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gommecourt-Battleg...1824&sr=1-3

[roy mawbey]

Soton,Bob and Zippy 72 ,

Many thanks for your input on this this its much appreciated! I will check the points and books you advise describing the Gommecourt battle. Yes, it must have been grim that day for so many! It does tie up with what my old aunt told me that he got wounded in no-mans land and could not be rescued for 3 days. What an introduction to war. It makes me wonder if he lasted the 4 years in the army just what sort of person was he on return. Maybe it changed him and he never stayed with the family. I wish I had really pushed people that knew him to give me an answer but its only when you are are older and wiser? that you feel you really want to know.

As I understand it, nearly all the records of those who served in WW1 were lost in a fire in WW2 so I think I have a lot of delving to do.

I agree though it would seem 169 relates to his battalion and this is good step forward.

Again many thanks

Roy

[RobertBr]

Roy

Re your last post '169' is a Brigade not his battalion. Each battalion would be associated with a regiment, ie a regiment had many battalions.

The 56th (London) division had three infantry brigades consisting of:

167th Bde:

1/7th Middlesex Regt

1/8th Middlesex Regt

1/1st Londons (Royal Fusiliers)

1/3rd Londons (Royal Fusiliers) – until 2 Feb 1918

168th Bde:

1/4th Londons (Royal Fusiliers)

1/13th Londons (Kensingtons)

1/14th Londons (London Scottish)

1/12th Londons (Rangers) – until 2 Feb 1918

169th Bde:

1/5th Londons (London Rifle Brigade)

1/16th Londons (Queen’s Westminster Rifles)

1/2nd Londons (Royal Fusiliers)

1/9th Londons (Queen Victoria’s Rifles) – until 2 Feb 1918

usually two Brigades would be in the line and one at rest.

In addition to the above were the RFA, Pioneers, RE and many other support units.

Bob

[sotonmate]

Roy

His being in No Man's Land for 3 days is no surprise as our units were unable to capture it and get their troops back safely,only being able to do a bit under cover of darkness. Even then your man may have made his own way back very slowly.

Sotonmate

[roy mawbey]

Hi Bob B and sotonmate,

Again my thanks!!!!. I noticed in my first mail I put 1914 insread of 1916 for the Gommecourt battle! Pleased it didn't put you off replying. I also noticed after sending, my mistake about using "battalion" instead of "Brigade" I must check new mails before sending to avoid confusion!

I was lucky with Amazon, Zippy.72 advised they had a book on the " Gommecourt battle" I have bought one of their second hand ones for under four pounds so will be interested in seeing what is written.

The listings by Bob B will be saved as is every item for me to get a clear picture.

You guys are great!

Cheers

Roy

[high wood]

I have to say that I am confused by this thread. P/1479 Philip H Mawby served with the Rifle Brigade not the 5th (City of London) Battalion, London Regiment, (London Rifle Brigade).

The London Rifle Brigade were at Gommecourt with the 169th Brigade, 56th Division on July 1st 1916. No battalions of the Rifle Brigade were at Gommecourt on that date.

We haven't yet ascertained which battalion of the Rifle Brigade Philip H Mawby served with. Can someone please post his MIC as that might give us a lead.

[roy mawbey]

High wood,

Your mail makes interesting reading!! If the MIC you wish to see is the medal card I am now trying to forward this to you with this mail. On it it only refers to "Rifle Brig" I assumed as he was from London, the Rifle Brigade that fought at Gommecourt was the correct one!

I don't have experience to know much about this, and really was at a blank wall after getting his Medal card and not much info on it.

I am sorry if in any way I have confused the other helpers, not my intention!

hope the attachment gets through. ( Just got a message upload file failed file was too large )

Details on Medal card is:

Mawbey Phillip H Rif Brig Rank A/Cpl. Regt. No. P1479 Medal (Victory ) M102B10 page 1361

regards

Roy Mawbey

[high wood]

Roy,

I have not received the medal index card. Is there a date of entry in theatre at the bottom or is it left blank? I am not sure what the P prefix to the service number indicates but I am sure that it has some significance. To find out more about the Rifle Brigade go to the Long Long trail section of this forum at the top left hand corner of this page.

Simon.

[riflegreen]

He served with the 16th rifle Brigade . Roy , the London Rifle Brigade was a territorial unit and the Rifle Brigade a Regular Army unit .

Chris

[stiletto_33853]

As Chris has said, 16th Rifle Brigade.

Andy

[MBrockway]

He served with the 16th rifle Brigade . Roy , the London Rifle Brigade was a territorial unit and the Rifle Brigade a Regular Army unit .

Chris

Roy,

I'm afraid there's been some mix-up here between completely separate and unrelated units which unfortunately have confusingly similar names.

The London Rifle Brigade - full name 1/5th Battalion London Regiment (London Rifle Brigade) was one of the battalions in the London Regiment, which was a regiment entirely made up of territorial soldiers.

The Rifle Brigade - full name The Rifle Brigade (The Prince Consort's Own) was a separate regiment, which recruited nationally, and raised 20+ battalions during the War.

Another of the London Regiment territorial battalions was 1/6th London Regiment (Rifles), which also regularly causes confusion here on the Forum!

From Andy's medal roll information you can see that your relative was definitely in the 16th Battalion of The Rifle Brigade not 1/5th London Regiment (LRB). The full name of 16/RB was 16th Rifle Brigade (St Pancras). This was a volunteer battalion (not a territorial battalion) with IIRC a strong connection with London - there are a couple of specialists on this battalion here on the Forum who will confirm this for you (if they spot this!).

Even more confusingly there is also a territorial battalion in the London Regiment called 1/19th Battalion London Regiment (St Pancras). Bear that in mind if you do a search on the Forum for St Pancras!

Many of the London Regiment territorial battalions had historic links with the two English regular rifle regiments - the King's Royal Rifle Corps and The Rifle Brigade - which were in fact renewed between the wars, so that by WW2 they were once again formally affiliated to one of these two regiments. This comes from shared background in the rifle movement. However in The Great War these territorial battalions were all within the London Regiment.

Here are the battalion's movements from Westlake's British Battalions on The Somme:

16th (Service) Battalion (St. Pancras). 117th Brigade, 39th Division.

Arrived Doullens from Bethune area (24/8).

To Vauchelles-Ies-Authie (25/8),

Bertrancourt (28/8).

To forward zone (2/9).

Attacked north of the Ancre (3/9).

Relieved at night and to bivouacs near Mailly-Maillet. Casualties - over 400. To Bertrancourt (4/9),

Mailly-Maillet (6/9),

reserve trenches Hebuterne (11/9),

front line (13/9),

Courcelles-au-Bois (19/9),

front line (20/9),

Courcelles-au-Bois (31/9),

Hedauville (2/10),

trenches near Thiepval (5/10),

dug-outs on Martinsart Road (10/10).

In support during 118th Brigade's successful assault on the Schwaben Redoubt (14/10).

Attack on Stuff Redoubt (21/10) - objective Pope's Nose. Casualties - 138.

To Martinsart Road dug-outs (24/10),

trenches River Ancre sector (27/10),

Schwaben Redoubt (3/11),

Senlis (5/11).

Later to Thiepval. To Martinsart Wood (11/11),

Thiepval (13/11).

In support during 39th Division's attack on St. Pierre Divion. To Warloy (14/11),

Bollezeele, north of St Omer via Beauval and Candas (15/11).

Cheers,

Mark

[roy mawbey]

To: Mark, Stiletto33853, RifleGreen and HighWood,

I am so pleased to have this information, without all your help and that includes everyone that replied I would NEVER have obtained this information and my 3 sons and our grandchildren would never have known anything about his service in WW1

I am really amazed at what you guys can find and put on paper! Really its made my day!

Thanks again and I do hope I can come back to you all with more questions ( which I am sure I will have )when I now dig a little deeper.

Roy Mawbey

[MBrockway]

Roy,

..

I am not sure what the P prefix to the service number indicates but I am sure that it has some significance.

..

Simon.

Roy / Simon,

With respect to the "P" prefix to the Rifle Brigade Service Number, I can do no better than quote the Master - Andy - from correspondence I've had with him on this:

"The P Prefix [.. relates to ..] a large recruitment office in St. Pancras. There are newspaper articles concerning the 19th London Regiment [Mark: i.e. 1/19th London Regiment (St Pancras) that I mentioned above] and the local Mayor's disappointment about another battalion being formed locally (16th RB) [Mark: i.e. 16th Rifle Brigade (St Pancras) - your grandfather's battalion], although a lot of these men with the P Prefix may not have come from this area. [Certainly ..] a fair few came from [ .. more distant ..] areas that connected to St. Pancras by the railway network."

Andy - hope you're OK with me posting this from your e-mail

So it looks almost certain that Roy's GF enlisted locally at St Pancras.

Cheers,

Mark

[stiletto_33853]

Roy,

Glad that we have been able to help you a little more with regard to your relation, if you can tie down a date a little more I have the 16th RB's War Diary.

Mark,

Not a problem, there was also a 17th Battalion Rifle Brigade, which never saw service overseas, that utilised the P-Prefix pretty extensively, so I would presume, only a presumption as there are no records for the battalion, it was from the St. Pancras area, but on numerous records that I have come across there is reference to initially being in the 17th RB. The P Prefix numbers certainly number more than a battalion.

Andy

[roy mawbey]

Andy and Mark,

That all makes sense, he was working in 1914 in London and St Pancras was no doubt near, and as you say a large recruitment office. At the time I asked my aunt for info, she just mentioned at the Somme battle he was wounded on no-mans land for 3 days and suffered bad sunburn as well as the wound. At that time I thought the Somme battle was just July 1916 which of course was wrong. ( My wifes grandfather was killed in the Flers offensive in September ) I didn't know then the Somme was a river!

So its going to be difficult to tie down any date for the war diary. In my position is there any chance medical records exist that might tie down the date he was wounded. I guess so many other people looking are in the same position.

Again! your work very much appreciated!

Roy

[MBrockway]

Andy and Mark,

In my position is there any chance medical records exist that might tie down the date he was wounded. I guess so many other people looking are in the same position.

Roy

Roy,

I have searched through The Times lists of Killed and Wounded for Mawby OR Mawbey from the start of 1915 to the end of 1918.

There were 17 Mawby/Mawbeys found but none were your chap I'm afraid.

The indexing is not 100% perfect as I think it uses Optical Character Recognition (it's a lot better than the Ancestry search engine mind!) so we can't be absolutely certain he's not in these lists. The only way to be sure would be a manual search of the actual newspapers - a huge task!

You're right - lots of people will be in the same boat. Myself for one!

Family tradition has my own grandfather receiving three "Blighty ones". I have a photo, which the Pals here have dated to roughly end 1916, showing him with a single Wound stripe, but no sign of the serious head wound for which he carried the scars for the rest of his life. Family legend also had him being gassed as my grandmother and aunts were not allowed nail varnish because the smell was too vivid a reminder for him.

His Service Records do not appear to have survived the Blitz and I've had no luck so far getting any further detail of where/when/how he might have been wounded etc.

I've found no trace of him in The Times lists either.

Cheers,

Mark

[roy mawbey]

Mark,

Thanks so much for looking through the "Times" listing to see if he was on there. I know how the smallest detail can bring up so much confusion. I nearly gave up when the other sites had no info on any Phillip Horace Mawbey and only a last ditch attempt by trying "Mawby" did it succeed. ( As mentioned in my early posts even in census returns because most was handwritten made the same mistake on their entries.)

The other thing is of course "word of mouth" it seems to me its never so reliable as something the person himself has written! I have only one photo only of my grandfather holding his youngest daughter in 1906). I look actually a lot like him! By knowing now where he went in France through this forum's fantastic help is a long step forward for me.

Maybe for you also, something might just suddenly turn up to make things clearer. I have only just recently established my Grandfathers brother went early in the 1900's to Australia and I now have his records. I have yet to find out if his family? is still around and if they know more of what happened to Phillip after WW1. Be assured If I find out I will let you know!

cheers Roy

[MBrockway]

Roy,

At least you now know his correct battalion - that's as far as I have got with my own GF, but I've been enjoying tremendously researching the war history of his battalions (he transferred between two btns). I know that for at least some of the time he was in these places.

When some day I do come across that golden clue that tells me more about him specifically, at least I'll know the detail of his units to quickly give me the context.

Good luck!

CHeers,

Mark

[Guest kwib]

I am not sure if this thread is still live, but I am came across it today when looking for information on my wife's great-grandfather. He was in the 16th (Service) Battalion (St. Pancras) and died on 4th July 1916. When we first found this out, we assumed (never assume, I know) that he was killed at the Somme. But my wife's eldest aunt was not convinced that this was true. The doubt having been raised, I began to look into the movements of the Battalion. With great excitement, I read the battalion's movements from Westlake's British Battalions on The Somme quoted below. However, these date from August. Does anyone know the movements/engagaments of the Battalion in June/July 1916? or what the best source would be for me to follow? Sergeant Walter Augustus Storey is commemmorated at the Loos Memorial, if that is of any help.

Roy,

I'm afraid there's been some mix-up here between completely separate and unrelated units which unfortunately have confusingly similar names.

The London Rifle Brigade - full name 1/5th Battalion London Regiment (London Rifle Brigade) was one of the battalions in the London Regiment, which was a regiment entirely made up of territorial soldiers.

The Rifle Brigade - full name The Rifle Brigade (The Prince Consort's Own) was a separate regiment, which recruited nationally, and raised 20+ battalions during the War.

Another of the London Regiment territorial battalions was 1/6th London Regiment (Rifles), which also regularly causes confusion here on the Forum!

From Andy's medal roll information you can see that your relative was definitely in the 16th Battalion of The Rifle Brigade not 1/5th London Regiment (LRB). The full name of 16/RB was 16th Rifle Brigade (St Pancras). This was a volunteer battalion (not a territorial battalion) with IIRC a strong connection with London - there are a couple of specialists on this battalion here on the Forum who will confirm this for you (if they spot this!).

Even more confusingly there is also a territorial battalion in the London Regiment called 1/19th Battalion London Regiment (St Pancras). Bear that in mind if you do a search on the Forum for St Pancras!

Many of the London Regiment territorial battalions had historic links with the two English regular rifle regiments - the King's Royal Rifle Corps and The Rifle Brigade - which were in fact renewed between the wars, so that by WW2 they were once again formally affiliated to one of these two regiments. This comes from shared background in the rifle movement. However in The Great War these territorial battalions were all within the London Regiment.

Here are the battalion's movements from Westlake's British Battalions on The Somme:

16th (Service) Battalion (St. Pancras). 117th Brigade, 39th Division.

Arrived Doullens from Bethune area (24/8).

To Vauchelles-Ies-Authie (25/8),

Bertrancourt (28/8).

To forward zone (2/9).

Attacked north of the Ancre (3/9).

Relieved at night and to bivouacs near Mailly-Maillet. Casualties - over 400. To Bertrancourt (4/9),

Mailly-Maillet (6/9),

reserve trenches Hebuterne (11/9),

front line (13/9),

Courcelles-au-Bois (19/9),

front line (20/9),

Courcelles-au-Bois (31/9),

Hedauville (2/10),

trenches near Thiepval (5/10),

dug-outs on Martinsart Road (10/10).

In support during 118th Brigade's successful assault on the Schwaben Redoubt (14/10).

Attack on Stuff Redoubt (21/10) - objective Pope's Nose. Casualties - 138.

To Martinsart Road dug-outs (24/10),

trenches River Ancre sector (27/10),

Schwaben Redoubt (3/11),

Senlis (5/11).

Later to Thiepval. To Martinsart Wood (11/11),

Thiepval (13/11).

In support during 39th Division's attack on St. Pierre Divion. To Warloy (14/11),

Bollezeele, north of St Omer via Beauval and Candas (15/11).

Cheers,

Mark

[stiletto_33853]

kwib,

The 16th Rifle Brigade in June were in and out of the line near Givenchy until the 6th June then marched to Essars to conduct some training from the 7th to the 10th. From the 11th June they went into the Festubert village line and the Islands line and stayed there serving in and out of the line for some time.

The day that your wife's great grandfather died (4/7/16), the battalion launched a raid against a point called the Pope's Nose during which 3 officers were killed, 3 other ranks were killed, 4 officers wounded, 50 other ranks wounded, 3 officers missing and 24 other ranks missing.

If you need any further details ask away.

Andy