paulfeeney Posted 12 October , 2008 Share Posted 12 October , 2008 Hi all I'm trying to establish the regiment of my grandfather, from a photo. Unfortunately, it isn't great quality. If it's any help, his name was William James Mogg, and he came from Reddith. I have looked through the Medal card Index and come up with a couple of WJ Mogg's A/3446 - RR Rif Pte 21137 - Oxf & Bucks LI L/Cpl 59797 - Ches R. Pte 38656 - Lab Corp Any help would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 12 October , 2008 Share Posted 12 October , 2008 I would plump for King's Royal Rifle Corps but would prefer to see a closeup of the cap badge before I commit myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Thompson Posted 12 October , 2008 Share Posted 12 October , 2008 I think high Wood could be right, looks like black or very dark buttons that usually went with Rifle regiments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 12 October , 2008 Share Posted 12 October , 2008 I would agree with the both the above, the black buttons of a rifle regiment, a close up of the cap badge would be more telling but looks good from here. Just out of interest Paul where is Reddith? I wonder if there is any connection between William James Mogg and the Moggs in my signature (see below) Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 12 October , 2008 Share Posted 12 October , 2008 I agree too - though we'll need a zoom in to be more certain. Here's a link to what became our KRRC badge topic: L/Cpl John Brockway, R/6479, 12th & 16th KRRC, ... including general information on KRRC cap badges So that would have your grandfather as being Pte William James Mogg, A/3446, King's Royal Rifle Corps (K R Rif on most MICs) According to our KRRC and Rifle Brigade Service Number key written by Andy (the Nameless One), The "A/" prefix would indicate William Mogg was an Army Reservist, who had either (a) had their original Service Number re-allocated to another man; or (b ) been discharged from the Reserve and then re-enlisted. In other words, William would have been a Regular in the King's Royal Rifle Corps before the war. If his service stretched back to the South African wars, then we might expect him to be wearing some campaign ribbons - again the photo quality is not really good enough. Do you know how old he was? I assume your Reddith is a typo for Redditch, Worcs.? That would make Ox & Bucks LI and the Cheshires unlikely as these regiments had county associations. My own grandfather (see the Topic in the link) was from the Tenbury Wells/Kidderminster area: only a few miles from Redditch - perhaps they knew each other! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 12 October , 2008 Share Posted 12 October , 2008 Paul, If we're right, then several Pals have copies of the KRRC Medal Rolls, though not myself unfortunately, and if you're lucky, someone may be able to do a look up and tell us in which battalion Pte William James Mogg, A/3446, KRRC served. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 12 October , 2008 Share Posted 12 October , 2008 He seems to be wearing the 1915 to 1916 Economy Service Dress, so that may not be consistent with a recalled Reservist? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulfeeney Posted 12 October , 2008 Author Share Posted 12 October , 2008 Hi Guys Kings Royal Rifle Corps looks favourite then? I didn't know about the dark buttons fact! Just goes to show the wealth of information to be gained on the board. Oops, Reddith should have been Redditch (in Worcestershire, close to Birmingham). Apologies. Jay, maybe our Moggs could be related. It's a pretty unusual surname. Mark, my grandfather William James Mogg was born in 1893, so early 20's in the picture. Like I said, unfortunately I dont have a better quality picture. I only have the photo in electronic format. Here is the KRR Medal Card I found, in case it holds further clues Once again, thanks for your help. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulfeeney Posted 12 October , 2008 Author Share Posted 12 October , 2008 Hi Guys Here is an enlarged and lightened version of the Cap Badge, hopefully it may be a bit clearer. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 12 October , 2008 Share Posted 12 October , 2008 The 7th, 8th and 9th (Service) battalions of the KRRC all disembarked in France around the 19th-20th May 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 12 October , 2008 Share Posted 12 October , 2008 The 7th Bn actually did land at Boulogne on the 19th, but like High Wood has mentioned 3 battalions of the KRRC landed closely together. The enlargement does definately give the appearance of a blackened Maltese cross. Paul, the Moggs are my wifes side of the family and are of Weymouth, Dorset decent, there's certainly not too many of them around Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 12 October , 2008 Share Posted 12 October , 2008 Paul, the Moggs are my wifes side of the family and are of Weymouth, Dorset decent, there's certainly not too many of them around Jon By a further coincidence my grandfather's Brockway roots were also in Dorset having moved to Worcestershire two generations earlier! In the north of the county on Wilts border though, definitely not Weymouth. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 12 October , 2008 Share Posted 12 October , 2008 Mark, my grandfather William James Mogg was born in 1893, so early 20's in the picture. Cheers Paul So he'd have been 21 or 22 years old at the outbreak of the war. That makes is very tight for him to have already been a pre-War regular in the KRRC and have had his Service Number already re-allocated to another man by the time he re-enlisted. I agree embarkation date on the MIC suggests 7/KRRC, 8/KRRC or 9/KRRC in 14th (Light) Division as the most likely battalions. However if he was an ex-regular, it's possible he was posted to any of the regular battalions 1/KRRC, 2/KRRC, 3/KRRC or 4/KRRC as a replacement. We'll need someone to look at the KRRC Medal Rolls to resolve this. The MIC also tells us he transferred out of the KRRC into the Ox & Bucks Light Infantry at some stage. Such transfers were often after returning to duties after recovering from wounds. Paul, for your info these two regiments, together with the Rifle Brigade, were closely allied in the Peninsular Campaign in the Napoleonic Wars and all three were eventually merged to become the Royal Green Jackets. A transfer to the OBLI is not surprising therefore. Transfers between the KRRC and the Rifle Brigade were commonplace. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulfeeney Posted 13 October , 2008 Author Share Posted 13 October , 2008 Hi guys Any further comments on the enlarged pic of the Cap badge? Do you think we can confirm it as the cross of the King's Royal Rifle Corps? Many thanks Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 14 October , 2008 Share Posted 14 October , 2008 Paul, You originally shortlisted two WJ Mogg's ... #1 Pte WJ Mogg, A/3446, King's Royal Rifle Corps, later L/Cpl, 21137, Ox & Bucks Light Infantry #2 Pte WJ Mogg, 59797, Cheshire Regiment, later Cpl, 38656, Labour Corps Let us deal with each of these in turn ... The various KRRC cap badges can all be seen in the link further up this topic. The standard Ox & Bucks Light Infantry cap badge can be ruled out: There was a different badge used in the two "Buckinghamshire Battalions" - 1/1 OBLI and 2/1 OBLI - which uses a rifles style Maltese Cross similar to the KRRC: However these battalions were part of the Territorial Force and it seems unlikely that our man would be transferred into them from a KRRC battalion. The Cheshire Regiment badge is very different: Finally the Labour Corps wore various badges at different stages of the war. According the Royal Pioneer Corps website ... When the Labour Corps was formed in mid 1917 it was decided that the men assigned to it from other regiments, often because of their reduced medical category, should change their regimental badges to that of the General Service Corps. Many of the men disliked having to wear this badge and preferred to retain their regimental identity. Towards the end of 1918 the Labour Corps was granted their own badge - the piled pick, rifle and shovel emblem that was to become the badge of the Pioneer Corps (later Royal Pioneer Corps). [my underlining etc.] I can't find a usable image of that piled pick, rifle and shovel cap badge, but your man in the photo is definitely not wearing it! He might have continued wearing his Cheshires badge, or either the General Service Badge or the new Pioneer Corps badge. Your zoomed-in version of his cap badge is still a little unclear, but my money is still on the KRRC. HTH Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 14 October , 2008 Share Posted 14 October , 2008 No sooner do I post, than I find a reasonable image of the Pioneer Badge Here we go: As you can see, a totally different shape. Also I forgot to say the General Service badge is the national crest surmounted by the lion under a crown with a lion and a unicorn supporting either side. Again definitely not our badge here. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted 14 October , 2008 Share Posted 14 October , 2008 No matter how hard I try I can not see a Maltese cross there. To me the shape is much more consistant with the South Notts Yeomanry. Badge also avilable in brass/gilt. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted 14 October , 2008 Share Posted 14 October , 2008 Notice the SNY badge is a variation of the Cheshire Regt. I would bet that a Cheshire badge was around without the star! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 15 October , 2008 Share Posted 15 October , 2008 No matter how hard I try I can not see a Maltese cross there. Alan Alan, Does this help? ... Certainly the top cross arm and the two side arms seem pretty clear to me, as does the rectangle at the top containing the "Celer et Audax" motto with crown above. The bottom arm is very hard to make out, but remember the badge was blackened and non-reflective. I have seen a lot of contemporary photos of KRRC men and it often surprises me how easily a chunk of the badge disappears into the cap background! My main doubt is about confirming that this maltese cross is definitely the KRRC. A lot of the units with their roots in the Victorian volunteer rifle regiments use maltese crosses. Distinguishing the KRRC badge from some of these can be very difficult in a poor quality photo. HTH CHeers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulfeeney Posted 15 October , 2008 Author Share Posted 15 October , 2008 Hi Guys Many thanks for all the help with the identification. I think the KRRC seems to be most peoples favourite choice, with the Medal Card and darkened buttons supporting it. Thanks for all your efforts, especially to Mark, as the last posting was particularly helpfull. I will try to dig a little further. Cheers, and keep up the good work on the board Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 15 October , 2008 Share Posted 15 October , 2008 Pals, Here's a nice colour photo of the WW1 uniform from the KRRC 250th Anniversary celebration parade: Note though, that this tunic is from the Regimental Museum collection and with age the blackening has worn off the buttons to a degree - particularly the lower one. Obviously the wearer is of more recent vintage Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 15 October , 2008 Share Posted 15 October , 2008 ... I would bet that a Cheshire badge was around without the star! Alan Alan, Certainly the CWGC use the oak sprig alone without the star on Cheshires headstones. Here's Alfred Hale's from the churchyard of St. Lawrence, Over Peover: ... but I've never seen a Cheshires cap badge without the star. The Cheshire Regiment museum is just down the road from me here in Chester, so I'll take a look at my next visit. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 15 October , 2008 Share Posted 15 October , 2008 The 7th, 8th and 9th (Service) battalions of the KRRC all disembarked in France around the 19th-20th May 1915. Paul, These battalions in 14th (Light) Division had the dubious honour of being the first to experience enemy use of flamethrowers at Hooge. There's some good info here on the GWF if you do a search. They were also very nearly annihilated in the Kaiserschlacht German Spring Offensive in March 1918. Again, a GWF Search will throw up quite a lot of background on this. Private Mogg is likely to have become L/Cpl Mogg, OBLI, by then of course. With luck one of the Pals will be able to confirm his battalion pretty soon from the KRRC Medal Rolls. It might be worth you editing the title of this Topic to better attract in the KRRC specialists? Cheers, Mark PS More than happy to help! It was help from the other Pals that got my research into my own grandfather kickstarted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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