Mutiny

[ddycher]

Whilst reading up on Taranto I came upon ref's to the 1918 BWIR mutiny. This got me wondering how many other mutinies had taken place during the war years. I have heard of the Etaples and Singapore mutinies as well as some troubles with certain Indian Bn's in Mesopotamia. Does anyone one have any other examples or views on how they were managed / dealt with ?

Regards

Dave

[dycer]

Dave,

Etaples has been discussed on the Forum before.

If you type in Etaples on the Forum Search Engine you should find the previous discussions.

George

[geraint]

Etables 1917, Kinmel 1919 - those are the two big ones - treated on this forum and well worth a search.

However

Arras 1917 - Canadians held out for two days against their officers. Free drink bought the troubles to an end. No injuries and no retribution.

Val De Lievre, Calais Nov 1917- tradesmen and artisans in the Royal army Ordnance Corps staged a sit-in strike, and classed as a mutiny by the authorities. Complaints about food, pay and working hours. A staff sergeant ringleader was "moved and later victimised".

Pirbright (Aldershot) - early 1918, mass walk-out by Guards Machine Gunners - reasons unknown. For three days all private soldiers refused duty and organised voluntary route marches instead of duty. A Welsh Guards Colonel bought events to an end, asking for 1 representative from each Guards regiment to discuss matters promising no retribution. However, GOC London District over-ruled the Colonel, the five were court martialed and given two years hard labour.

Shoreham 13th Nov 1918. All the men marched out when an officer pushed a private into the mud. Lasted one day - all the men demobbed the following day.

Folkestone 3rd Jan 1919. Inept demobing methods meant that men newly returned to Folkestone and Dover were re-shipped BACK to France. Two thousand men picketed the port and stoppped all sailings. Two days later 10,000 men involved. Events cumulated with Sir William Robertson himself meeting them, and giving them complete indemnity.

Dover 5th Jan 1919 - 4,000 troops in sympathy with Folkestone.

Osterley 6th Jan 1919 - 1500 ASC men seized lories.

Shoreham, Bromley, Bristol, Fairlop, Grove Park, Kempton Park, Park Royal, Sydenham, Aldershot.

During same week, sympathetic actions.

No men were injured - no recriminations taken.

Southampton (mid January 1919)

20,000 soldiers went on strike, and took over the docks. General Trenchard "beaten up" by mutineers. 170 chosen as ringleaders, of which 53 given 'solitary' in a troopship.

Colchester Feb 1919

Durham Light Inf refused to embark for Russia. 'Settled' by Guards.

RAF Biggin Hill - Jan 1919

500 men of the Wireless Experimental Establishment strike due to appalling conditions. 141 Squadron at North Camp joined them. Finally - authorities agreed to no victimisation, and all were 10 day's leave whilst conditions were made better.

Calais 1919 (end Jan)

Val de Lievre Camp again. Pte John Pantling, Army Ordnance and Mech Transport. arrested for 'delivering a seditious speech'. A large mob released him from gaol, and troubles escalated. The Sergeant responsible for the gaol was arrested for 'failing to prevent his escape'. Three days later, 20,000 men involved. Mutiny lasted till 30 Jan.

Whitehall, London - Feb 1919.

3,000 demonstrating troops marched down Whitehall to Horse Guards Parade. Guards surrounded them with machineguns, and advanced with bayonets to arrest them. Mutineers surrendered, and narrowly avoided bloodbath.

Then of course there's the Navy! Another story!

[Roxy]

Notable that most (but not all) were post Armistice.

A lack of exit strategy perhaps

Roxy

[geraint]

Roxy: absolutely correct! Job done! Bu**er the lads who done it!

[Ron Clifton]

Most of the British Army "mutinies" were effectively industrial-type disputes about conditions. In particular, those of 1919 were largelymotivated by the desire for early demobilisation, either because men feared that they would lose out in the rush for postwar jobs, and partly by "we joined for the duration, the war's over, so we want to go home."

The mutinies were also mostly at home, or at the coast bases in France. I know of very few instances indeed of similar instances of unrest in the front lines.

As I recall, the BWIR mutiny in Italy was that the men had joined to fight, but were not allowed to do so and were kept on labouring duties.

Generally speaking the British authorities' stance was to show firmness but to take note of, investigate and often remedy the men's grievances.

Ron

[RobL]

Osterley 6th Jan 1919 - 1500 ASC men seized lories

Any more on this one? Sounds interesting...

[geraint]

Not necessarily post war.

I'm going on research work done by myself in 1980, so much of this stuff may well be updated by now. Having gone through my notes, the following need to be added.

Boulogne Sept 5th 1917, a few days before Etables, two companies of the Labour Corps went on strike at Boulogne, and on 6th they were shot down. 23 were killed, and 24 wounded. On 10 Sept, No 74 Labour Company struck in sympathy Sept 11, the authorities responded killing 4 men and wounding15, and imprisoning a further 25. A month later, a similar dispute occured in First Army Depot, resulting in 5 deaths and 14 wounded. Other 'strikes' in the Labour Corps occured, but the casualty list is not recorded. December 1917, a Guards unit opened fire on strikers of No 21 Labour Company at Fontinettes, Calais, killing 4 wounding 9. The mutineers were Chinese and Egyptian - hence the savage reprisals.

Osterley, Monday Jan 6th 1919

1500 members of ASC seized lorries and drove them to Whitehall. It was widely believed that the ASC would be the last to be demobbed. Within 4 days, they were all demobbed.

[ddycher]

George - I will go through the Etaples ad Kinmel threads - thanks.

Todate I tended to concur with Ron. Most of the mutinies I had come across were either related to Imperial troops, in other theatres, in labour disputes or after hostilities were over in the run up to demobilisation. However Geraints note on 1917 would seem to suggest that there were many more events than is general knowledge today. I have a sneaking suspition that this is probably true and that details were seldomly released to the public. This is certainly true for the Mesopotamian front where there were significant cases within the Indian troops on which there seems to be little published.

RobL - re. the Taranto Mutiny Channel 4 did a program on it and alot of the interview material is available on the web. This centred around the 9th BWIR and as Ron states them being used at Taranto, where the BWIR was being consolidated before demobbing. as labour. Ultimately apparently all Bn's were disarmed and escorted home under escort. 5 leaders were courtmartialled and one executed (no details on this). Interestingly I have previous ref's for unrest at Taranto a year earlier with the ELC.

Do we know of any earlier cases on the Western Front ? or further little known examples ?

Regards

Dave

[nigelfe]

IIRC some had political overtones - the influence of the Bolshevik revolution.

[Roxy]

According to Corns and Hughes-Wilson, in Blindfold and Alone, the British (sic) soldiers executed for mutiny were:

Labourer Mahmoud Mohamed Ahmed- Egypt Labourer Corps - on 10 Oct 1917

Private Jack (John) Braithwaite - 2 Otago - on 29 Oct 1916

Gunner William E Lewis - 124 Bde RFA - on 29 Oct 1916

A/Corporal Jesse Robert Short - 24 Northumberland Fusiliers - on 4 Oct 1917

Both Braithwaite and Lewis - executed on the same day - are commemorated at St Sever Cemetery Extension.

It appears that October is not a good month to mutiny!

This does not detail members of the BWIR (nor the mutineers of 5 Native Light Infantry in Singapore).

Roxy

[irishmen1916]

The India mutiny June/July 1920 deserves mention. It started in Jullundur, Punjab when members of C Company 1st Batt. Connaught Rangers refused to take orders from their officers because of what was happening back home in Ireland (War of Independence and the reprisals by the black and Tans). With in days the muntiny ended and the mutineers imprisoned at Dagshai, and that would have been the end of it, but word had been sent to the Rangers detachment stationed in Solan who also refused to take orders, the leader there was Private James Daly, along with a numer of other Rangers they stormed the armoury, which was defended successfully by a number of officers and men.

Privates Sears and Smyth where shot dead during the attack and the other mutineers taken prisoner. 88 where later court martialled, fourteen men where sentenced to death, others given 15 years in gaol and a few acquitted. 13 death sentence's were commuted to life imprisonment.

Private James Daly, 21 years old, was executed in Dagshai Prison on November 2nd 1920, he was the last member of British Forces to be executed for mutiny.

Peter

[Ron Clifton]

This does not detail members of the BWIR (nor the mutineers of 5 Native Light Infantry in Singapore).

Roxy

The mutineers at Singapore, and probably some in Mespot, were tried under the Indian Army Act, not the British one, and are therefore omitted from British statistics.

Ron

[geraint]

Ron

Yes most were industrial disputes, and communist influences were recorded in most. Camp conditions seems to be the big one, and post war demobbing as well. Interesting at Folkestone, Soldiers Committees (almost like soviets) took command of the troops.

The Pirbright in spring 1918 seems to be the most serious military event. This occured in the Guards Machine Gun sections. The men were all returned to their original Guards regiments, and were deliberately sent to violent war postings almost as if sending them to certain death.

The fact that High Command renegaded on the promises of the welsh guards colonel was also a nasty piece of politicing. In most later mutinies, there were no real recriminations. Leave and demobbing did the trick.

[Great War Truck]

There is a photo (available for sale - at a price) of the british troop mutiny before going to Russia here.

http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.a...&id=3139840

Lots of otehr interesting images too - mostly army trucks.

Tim (too)

[geraint]

Good one! The Russian conflict was certainly a threat; rumours spread like wildfire that units were to be sent there. Certainly played a part in some occurances.

[Moonraker]

I've posted most of the following info relating to Wiltshire before, but it's probably easier for me to repeat it than seek out when and where:

Days after the Armistice, morale among a Meteorological Section of Royal Engineers at the School of Navigation at Stonehenge Airfield plummeted when a staff major from the War Office asked for volunteers to join the North Russian Expeditionary Force; only one man came forward. Among those most horrified by this prospect was Lance-Corporal Andrew Rothstein, who went on what he hoped would be an extended Christmas leave, only to receive a telegram ordering his immediate return. He was one of seven who were to form a compulsory draft for Russia. Then came news of unrest among troops at Dover and Folkestone and on January 4 Australians at Larkhill ran amok. Next morning there was a wreath of smoke above the army camp. Among the buildings burnt down was the military cinema, which had long proved obnoxious to colonial troops because it was reserved for warrant officers and officers. Soon every aerodrome on Salisbury Plain had elected, or was preparing to elect, a protest committee. A corporal in Rothstein's unit declared, "We've had enough of this bloody war and this bloody army". Rothstein himself took the view that the war in North Russia was undeclared and illegal, and being posted there would be contrary to the undertaking of his enlistment, which was to serve for "three years or the duration". But by the time he saw his commanding officer on the 6th the Government had heeded the swell of protest, and he was told that demobilisation would start four days later.

Many servicemen continued to be discontented after they were demobilised, their grievances including modest gratuities, a housing shortage and poor job prospects. At Swindon, a new pole bearing a Flag of Peace was burnt down - though the flag itself was saved - after rumours had spread that it was to be the town's only memorial to the dead and that it had cost £200. The Swindon Advertiser and local officials tried to avoid blaming former soldiers and sailors, noting that some had formed pickets to maintain order and peace, and claiming that "hooligans" of unspecified origin were to blame.

There was also a mutiny, leading to courts martial, among the 3rd West Yorkshires at Durrington Camp in July 1919. Some men refused to parade with fighting equipment, leading to seventeen with the longest service being court martialled. They argued that they had joined only for the duration of the war and, as "Peace had been signed", they were not going to do any more training; they had also resented the company sergeant-major calling them "a lot of ********", though he claimed he had said "a lot of Bolshevists". The accused were sentenced to between twelve and twenty-one months' hard labour, remitted to nine months. One was acquitted of a charge of leading 200 men in an attempt to release prisoners from the guardroom, and a second from a charge of yelling for it to be burned down, the latter's defence being that having been gassed he could not shout.

At Chisledon Camp, "Home Servicemen", composed of fathers and grandfathers, mutinied, wanting priority in the return to civilian life. The camp CO, Lord Dunalley, had a word with the major commanding the camp's machine-gun school:

'I went out onto the porch of the orderly-room. About a thousand men were howling: "We're going to be demobbed first." A note on the bugle and then a dead silence till I took up the tale. "There are Lewis guns in position commanding every street. My signal on the telephone and they open fire. Ten seconds to get to your huts." The allowance of time was over-generous. In 5 seconds every Home Serviceman was under his cot. I walked around with my staff and made the necessary arrests. Those who had yelled the loudest in front of the orderly-room." As a precaution Dunalley arranged for a squadron of Reserve cavalry to come up from Tidworth, followed next morning by a trainload of armed riflemen.

Moonraker

[geraint]

Hmmm! This thread takes me back to the late 70s when my interest in mutinies (centered around my local Kinmel Camp) was first awakened. I can recall, giving a brief talk on Radio Wales in about 1977 on this subject. What happened next was absolutely fantastic. I received about seven phone calls from ex-servicemen who had worked with Great War veterans as depot staff at various camps during the twenties and thirties, and were relaying stories told to them by said veterans. I did take 'copious notes' - where they are? - God knows - thirty years ago! If I find them - I'll summarise and relay here.

[manchester terrier]

geraint,

were the incidents you've detailed "hushed up" at the time, or subsequently "forgotten"?

The police strike of 1919 springs to mind as an event that has been "forgotten" until recent events brought a mention of it.

[geraint]

I don't think that they were deliberately hushed up - there were so many men involved, and reports did appear in the papers. Having said that, after over four years of war, I think the public were inured to tales of violence, and such events were skimmed over by the public as beng a continuation of the war.

On the other hand, the authorities certainly didn't want continued press reports about low moral and unease, and did play the stories down. For example - the story which appeared in the Times two days after the Kinmel Mutiny in March 1919 was a government propoganda PR piece which was a complete untruth. It was publicly changed in a week, and a sort of apology went with it.

[Roxy]

Blindfold and Alone has a chapter on mutiny.

Some details:

"1800 British soldiers were charged with mutiny between 1914 and 1920

The smallest estimate of French mutineers is 25,000; although some estimate as many as 40,000 in 1917.

During the 'Battle of the Frontiers' in 1914 the French did not even keep a record of those they executed.

There were 3 major mutinies amongst BEF units on the Western Front:

12 South Wales Borderers in Jan 1916;

a mortar unit from 38 (Welsh) Div in Sep 1917 and

the 'Bull Ring' incidents of Sep 1917"

Roxy

[geraint]

Thanks for that Roxy - especially the Welsh interest bit. I really must find that file and work on it again!

[Bernard_Lewis]

I've heard about the Welsh Division trench mortars before (here, actually) but have not come across any records (not that I've been actively looking). In future researches I shall keep my eyes peeled.

Bernard

[ddycher]

Roxy

"12 South Wales Borderers in Jan 1916;

a mortar unit from 38 (Welsh) Div in Sep 1917"

Had not heard of either of these before - do you have more detail you can share ?

Regards

Dave

[John Gilinsky]

geraint: Can you please give me details as to place, days/time, units and senior officers involved for the 1917 Arras mutiny by Canadians for 2 days?

Thanks,

John