Armoured cars, baghdad

[Ron]

Have been talking to my father in law re the Rolls Royce link. His family firm William Moore and Co in Sheffield supplied RR with high speed steel for machining, and for turbine blades and gears etc. He worked closely with a guy called Len Heath. His father was more involved on the internal combustion engine side which would have been at Crewe I suppose. Have been checking Kew archives and have found a 2nd Lieut WJ Flower, serving from 1916, which ties in with my original enquiry as he would have been 18 in 1916, will see if we can find more pictures etc.

What happened at Hit? and also what was the make up of 17th Indian Division? can only find British units in it, with no mention of LAMB.

17th Division

34 Infantry Brigade comprising

2nd Queens West Kents

31st Punjabs

1/112th Infantry

114 Mahrattas

No 129 MG Coy

34 Brigade Supply and Transport Coy

51 Infantry Brigade comprising

1st Highland Light Infantry

1/2nd Raiputs

14th Sikhs

1/10 Gurkhas

51 Brigade Supply and Transport Coy

52 Infantry Brigade comprising

1/6th Hampshires

45th Sikhs

84th Punjabis

1/113th MG Coy

No 257 MG Coy

52nd Brigade

One Squadron 10th Lancers

Artillery comprising

220 Brigade RFA

221 Brigade RFA

Three small arms ammunition sections

Engineers and Oioneers comprising

Sirmur Sappers and Miners Coy

Malerkotla Sappers and Miners Coy

Tehri-Garhwal Sappers and Miners Coy

1/32 nd Sikh Pioneers

17th Div Signal Coy

No 276 MG Coy

Div Troops Supply and Transport Coy

No 3, 19, 35 and 36 Combined Field Ambulances

No 1 Sanitary Section

No 7 Mobile Veterinary Section.

Ron

[david murdoch]

QUOTE (matteyre @ Jun 14 2008, 11:58 AM)

Have been talking to my father in law re the Rolls Royce link. His family firm William Moore and Co in Sheffield supplied RR with high speed steel for machining, and for turbine blades and gears etc. He worked closely with a guy called Len Heath. His father was more involved on the internal combustion engine side which would have been at Crewe I suppose. Have been checking Kew archives and have found a 2nd Lieut WJ Flower, serving from 1916, which ties in with my original enquiry as he would have been 18 in 1916, will see if we can find more pictures etc.

What happened at Hit? and also what was the make up of 17th Indian Division? can only find British units in it, with no mention of LAMB.

Matt

click on the links below regarding Hit.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C03E5D61538EE32A25752C1A9659C946996D6CF

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C03E5D61538EE32A25752C1A9659C946996D6CF

Hit was one of the towns taken on the push up the Euphrates . My grandfather was also there going by his list of place names. 8th,13th and 14th L.A.M.Bs were involved.and working closely with 1st Cavalry Brigade.

The L.A.M.Bs do not show up on division strength as they were classed as Army Troops - ie not assigned to a division and used wherever required.

David

[matteyre]

My father in law thinks JW Flower's CO was Major Sir T Thompson, referred to as Thompers, and that the LAMBs would have been combined as a Light Armoured Motor Brigade... He remembers him reporting also to General Brooking. He remembered changing the wheels on the car under fire, and he died because shrapnel near his heart was carcigenerous... I'm trawling through Mesopotamia Campaign 1914-1918 vol 4 at the moment....

[david murdoch]

My father in law thinks JW Flower's CO was Major Sir T Thompson, referred to as Thompers, and that the LAMBs would have been combined as a Light Armoured Motor Brigade... He remembers him reporting also to General Brooking. He remembered changing the wheels on the car under fire, and he died because shrapnel near his heart was carcigenerous... I'm trawling through Mesopotamia Campaign 1914-1918 vol 4 at the moment....

Matt.

That's correct Thompson was the OC of the L.A.M.B Brigade, comprising 8th, 13th and 14th L.A.M.Bs. He was captured 27/10/18 after his car was put out of action by shellfire, and Cpt Somerset OC 14th L.A.M.B assumed command. He is refered to in Roosevelt's book War in the garden of Eden

The commanders of the L.A.M.B units were as follows.

8th Captain David Todd DSO

13th Captain Graham Carr DSO,MC

14th Captain (The Honorable) Nigel Fitzroy "Slasher" Somerset DSO,MC

Do you have any more info on J W Flower? I can't find a medal index card on him. Was he Army Service Corps, or perhaps there in a special (technical) capacity due to his Rolls Royce experience? In the L.A.M.Bs, the gunners and armoured car crew were MGC(Motors) and the drivers ASC. Most of the support crew would also be ASC. Several of the officers appear to retain thier original regiments and were "attached" to particular unit or L.A.M.B brigade.

David.

[matteyre]

As I understand it he was definitely involved for his Rolls Royce engineering background, and was involved with signing off the armoured cars prior to battle. Not sure whether this would have made him ASC or RE. Apparently if the engines seals were broken by unqualified people Rolls Royce didnt want to know...he could only sign off 50% of the Light Armoured Brigade when they were wanting to take Baghdad so it was delayed, and Brooking threatened him with court martial... am pressing my father in law to dig out his medals to give more of an insight...

[matteyre]

my father in law has dug out his medals and he was ASC, so that really solves it in that he was ASC, in 6th LAMB, driving Cleopatra,but probably also using his engineering background... thanks everyone for your input

[david murdoch]

my father in law has dug out his medals and he was ASC, so that really solves it in that he was ASC, in 6th LAMB, driving Cleopatra,but probably also using his engineering background... thanks everyone for your input

Was he indeed a 2nd Lt as you previously mentioned, or possibly one of these two below?

As an officer his primary occupation would not have been a driver, but that's not to say he didn't drive. Especially with prior Rolls Royce experience he would have had some technical role.

Going from what I have from my grandfather (who was MGC(M)), Just about everybody on the cars would likely have had some driving experience, and the ASC chaps would have at least basic instruction on the Vickers, if they got in a bind or took casualties.

Flower, John W

Corps: Army Service Corps

Regiment No: M2/229767

Rank: Private

Flower, John W

Corps: Army Service Corps

Regiment No: M/372075

Rank: Private

There are MIC for the two above, but I never found one for a 2nd Lt ASC, also several hits for service records for JW Flower on Ancestry, so you may get lucky!