1/5th Norfolks and 8th Hants Gaza April 1917

[Guest stevebec]

Does any one have the War diaries for these units which show the details of what happened to them on the 19th April 1917.

I was interested in what they were doing and casulties on the date.

Thanks for any insight

S.B

[Guest Pete Wood]

Steve

This is my baby - 163 brigade (and particularly the IoW rifles - 8th Hants). I have read the diaries, but I have more info than they contain.

This was the second battle of Gaza, under the leadership of Sir Archibald Murray. The brigade was using the newly arrived tanks (of E Coy); most of these tanks were former training vehicles and in poor condition.

The brigade had to cover over a mile of open desert, with no cover, against well dug and well defended Turkish defences. The attack commenced at 07.30 hours.

The tanks were clustered together and were leading the Isle of Wight 'Gurkas.' Unfortunately, the tanks were the main target for the Turkish artillery which caused very heavy casualties in the brigade, particularly in the Hants which had kept up with the leading tanks.

When the ammo and water ran out, and the attack could not be sustained, most of the brigade withdrew, especially when the Turkish infantry counter-attacked. Many of the Hants were effectively cut off, on Tank Redoubt, and this resulted in even more casualties.

There were 8 officers killed, and over 190 OR from were killed that day from the 8th Hants. Another 450 were wounded or taken prisoner.

The Norfolks (5Bn and 4Bn) also suffered high losses with over 75 per cent casualties. 1/5 Norfolks had 220 OR and 8 officers KIA this day, and the 1/4 Norfolks had 160 ORs and 7 officers KIA.

The 5 Suffolks, held in reserve, had around 100 casualties including 2 officers and over 20 ORs KIA.

All together the brigade declared 55 Officers and 1,800 other ranks as casualties. This effectively decimated the brigade and the 54 (East Anglian Division) lost most of it's pre-war character and identity. Many of the replacements had no links to East Anglia (or Hampshire).

This costly defeat led to Murray being replaced by the 'Bull' - General Allenby.

The brigade had, effectively only five days of battle in the war. In August 1915, they were mauled at the Suvla landings on Gallipoli (the TV 'play' All The Kings Men told of that story). In 2nd Gaza, above, they suffered heavy losses, and were then slaughtered again in November 1917 - again at Gaza, when the Turkish defences were at last overcome.

54 Division was the only 'white' division to remain in Palestine. All the other Divisions were sent to France and gradually replaced by Indian Divisions.

If you want any other info, just ask. What's your interest?

[Guest stevebec]

Many thanks for your reply mate.

Can you answer some more questions on this BN.

Can you confirm in what postion the 8 Hants was in for the attack?

Since it was in the second line, was it in suport of the 1/5 Norfolfs.

And if so, did it advance at the same time as all other Bns. Or was it comited after the 1/5 Norfolk was stopped.

Can you confirm the prisoners taken from this Brigade / Bn's on this day.

I show two officers from the 8 Hants capture; Lt Blofeld who did of wounds as a prisoner, and Lt W. Strachan-Roberts who was captured in the redoubt with a number of soldiers including 11 AIF men.

Also do you know how the companies were deployed by both Bn's?

Thanks for any insight.

S.B

[Guest Pete Wood]

Steve

A full reply may take some time.

As I have admitted, I have read the diaries but I don't have copies. I have been asked by the IoW Living History Group to make a copy of the war diary, and I have agreed. At the same time, I will copy rest of the Brigade's diaries for the relevant period and send you a copy - as this is the best way to get precise PoW figures.

The IoW rifles were meant to be in support, but started the attack at the same time and moved further west than they were supposed to, to fall behind the two tanks. They passed through the Norfolks to get to Tank redoubt.

Marc Thompson is well worth contacting on this subject also.

Robert Alban Blofeld (often recorded as Blofield) was wounded on two occasions in the legs and stomach and died on the next day. I have some more info on this chap if you need it - as I made contact with a relative of his. Blofeld also had a brother, who survived the war, and was a pilot.

I don't know much about Strachan-Roberts except that he had joined the Bn with a small draft of replacements (mainly men from the Bedfords). In Blofeld's file a note, dated 1917, says that the news of Blofeld's death was reported by Strachan-Roberts - so I assume (??) that the Turks passed on a note to the Red Cross.

Two questions for you now, Steve.

Was this action mentioned by Bean - as you seem to have some info about Blofeld and his brother officer...??

What are you researching..??

[Guest stevebec]

Many thanks for that mate.

The reason is that I am writting the unit history of the Camel Brigade and this part of the story is still not told to my satifaction.

The Tank was HMLS Nutty under commander of 2/Lt FC. Carr, the other tank was KO (knock out) the day before during the move up the Sh. Abbis ridge. A number of the crew recived the DCM for rescuing their mates from the wreck.

I picked up their (The Tank Company) War diaries from Bovington which give some good detail on there fight.

As for Lt Blofeld I found his name on the "Soldiers who died 1914-18" CD and Lt Roberts gets a number of mentions in POW reports by the AIF soldiers captured in Tank redoubt.

I would like to know the British side of this battle as the Camel Corps action is recorded in a number of places including the Offical History but also reports by LtCol GF. Langley CO 1st Anzac Camel Bn.

So far there is little mentioned in all records about the 8 Hants untill it suddenly shows up in the redoubt. I did find it was in suport to the 1/5 Norfolks so I have often wondered how it moved across the battlefield threw the Norfolks and entered the redoubt.

Now records say only about 30 Camel Corps soldiers made the redoubt so I wondered how many British soldiers made it there from both Bn's.

I can hardly wait to hear back from you on this subject as all efforts to get the War Diaries of the Div, Brig and Bn's involved had meet with no luck.

Thanks and I'll wait for your reply.

Do you need anything from the Camel Corps on this subject?

S.B

[Guest Pete Wood]

The other tank that was destroyed was, according to the Suffolks, christened "Sir Archibald Murray." Perhaps you know different/more....??

Here is a pic of the Gaza positions to keep you going.

Umbrella hill, just SW of Gaza was the inspiration for the 54th Division to wear an upside-down umbrella as their divisional badge. "We put the wind up the Turks at Umbrella hill...."

[Guest Pete Wood]

If you download the pic, you should be able to magnify it to show more detail.

The blue line shows the Turkish defences. The red line shows the British trenches.

Just to the North West of Umbrella Hill is El Arish redoubt.

[Guest stevebec]

Yes Mate,

The other Tank was called "Sir Archibald" and I am sure it was after General Murray but didn't put it on because of the implercations.

The Commander was Lt Living (hard to read).

Do you know that the name "Nutty" was for the compamy OC Maj Norman Nutt and won a DSO for this battle.

The men from Sir Archibald who won the DCM when their tank was KO on the 17th April 1917 were;

L/Cpl V. Hatherall

Pte P. James

Pte J. Oldknow

S.B

[Marc Thompson]

Steve,

I have a fair amount of information on 8th Hants (IOW Rifles) involvement in this attack (though not as much as Racing Teapots) including the annotated relevant war diary entries. I can e-mail these to you if you are interested?

Regards

Marc

[Guest stevebec]

Yes thanks Marc,

I need to know so much about this battle from a British point of view rather then the Australian content I so far have found.

If it (EMail) does'nt work let me know and I'll see if we can work out another way.

Thanks again for the offer.

S.B

[michaeldr]

The caption for this picture reads

"A knocked-out British tank above a forward Turkish trench southeast of Gaza"

page 55 of 'The Changing Land Between the Jordan and the Sea"

by Benjamin Z. Kedar [his photgraphic index is not easy to follow, however I think that this picture was in the collection of Fritz Groll, the head of the photography and the survey unit of the German Squadron 300, who served in Palestine from 1916 to 1918.]

Michael D.R.

Sorry chaps

The pic will have to wait for expert advice tomorrow

My first attempt, a dud!

[Guest stevebec]

Thanks mate,

I look forward to seeing it.

Many books have photos of the many Tanks KO'ed on that day and later.

Most were taken after the Gaza postion was taken in late october and November 1917.

There are a few in "Palestine 1917" by Robert Wilson, he was an officer in the Royal Gloster Hussars Yeomanry during the war and won an MC.

S.B

[michaeldr]

I hope that this is of interest

The thanks are due to my son for technical advice

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Great Pic, Michael.

Unless I am mistaken, it's a female tank (carried machine guns in the sponsons, rather than a 6 pdr gun). Can you see any numbers or letters on the tank??

Steve B, are you able to say which tanks were male/female so we can confirm (or narrow down) the identity....??

Michael, did you know you can delete the other photo in the 'Play' area? When you log on, if you look in the top right hand corner of any message you've written, you can see the words 'EDIT' and 'DELETE.' Just click on those and you can remove the pic - and adjust any text as necessary.

[Guest Pete Wood]

I should have added that this tank is a Mk I.

I know that 'Kia-Ora' was one such female MkI that belonged to E Coy. What were the others....??

[michaeldr]

RT,

Thanks for confirming that its a Mk 1 Female

I am sorry but I can find no number or means of further identification

Do you know what she was knocked-out by?

[by coincidence, in Kedar's book it appears next to a photograph of an Austro-Hungarian howitzer plus crew, "in firing position near Gaza"]

SB,

re your writing on the Camel Brigade; I see that tomorrow, 2nd November, is the anniversary of Lt-Col Newcombe's debacle in 1917. As I understand it, Newcombe, with a small detachment plus Arab guides, was intending to cut-off any Turkish retreat northwards from Beersheva. He was however himself caught between Germans coming south from Hebron and Turks coming north from Edh-Dhahriya. Kedar reproduces an aerial photograph (which I shall try to attach) taken of Edh-Dhahriya on that very morning by German squadron 303, at 07.30 hrs, obliquely from a height of 600 meters. It shows what is supposed to be activity outside of the Turkish barracks (by the dip in the road just to the right of the centre of the picture) and as Kedar says "it might document Turkish activity related to that attack."

The photograph is from Prof. Karl Heinrich Rengstorf's collection deposited by Kedar with the Dept. of Geography - Aerial Photography unit, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

I think that I had better add, before the copyright writs come in, that Chris' main site "The Long, Long Trail" has for some months carried a review recommending Benjamin Z. Kedar's excellent book of aerial photography 'The Changing Land Between the Jordan and the Sea.'

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Guest stevebec]

Your right all tanks were Mk 1 's. As to their sex I know that, but HMLS Nutty was a Female.

The others sex are unknown or not record in the documents I have. There names were;

Nutty (KO)

Sir Achibald (KO on the 17/4/17)

Otazel (ditched)

War Baby (KO)

Kia-ora (survived?)

Pincher (in reserve not in conbat)

Tiger (KO)

Ole-Luk-die (broke down)

From what I gave there appears to but mostly Female tanks at this battle from the small number of photo's I ve seen.

Yes Newcombe what can be said about him. His story is a long one, with him into every thing either Pre war or during the war or post war. But his little trip did delay the flow of turkish reinforcements if only from a while during that late October early November.

S.B

[Guest Pete Wood]

Here is a pic of the MkI Male tank, HMLS Snapper.

[Guest Pete Wood]

This is a pic of a yet unidentified, and knocked out, MkI Male.

I found these pics on Lionel Smith's site.

He might be worth contacting about these and some other interesting pics (RFC and RAF) taken by his Grandfather.

Look at Pictures from Egypt in WW1

[Guest stevebec]

Remember after 2nd Gaza new tanks were sent to replace those lost during the battle.

They were used at 3rd Gaza and some were KO ed these maybe the male tanks shown?

Maybe the Tank Corps Webb site may have more as my research is only at 2nd Gaza.

S.B

[michaeldr]

my research is only at 2nd Gaza.

S.B

I can't tell which battle of Gaza this (posed looking) picture relates to, but it might be of interest to see what some of the opposition looked like. Kedar credits the photo to the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum (Militarwissenschaftliches Institut) Vienna. The caption reads "An Austro-Hungarian Howitzer in firing position near Gaza"

Regards

Michael D.R.