marina Posted 14 May , 2005 Share Posted 14 May , 2005 Does anyone have any info on this battalion's part in this battle? I have just discovered a great uncle who was KIA on that date. Also, does anyone know why he would have three service numbers? He's William Brogan of Dumbarton, service nos. 2474, 6117, and 303311, who served in the 10th Battalion, the Argylls. Thanks, Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 14 May , 2005 Share Posted 14 May , 2005 Marina, What is your source for the 3 numbers? The 10th Argylls were part of the 26 Brigade, 9th Scottish Division and were used in an attack to the west of Varlet Farm (south east of Poelcappelle) on the 12th October. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 14 May , 2005 Share Posted 14 May , 2005 Surname BROGAN Firstname William Service number 303311 Date of death 12/10/1917 Decoration Place of birth Dumbarton Other 10th Bn. SNWM roll THE ARGYLL AND SUTHERLAND HIGHLANDERS Rank Pte Theatre of death F.& F. Name: BROGAN, WILLIAM Initials: W Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment: Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders Unit Text: 10th Bn. Age: 21 Date of Death: 12/10/1917 Service No: 303311 Additional information: Son of James and Charlotte Brogan, of 210, High St., Dumbarton. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 141 to 143 and 162. Cemetery: TYNE COT MEMORIAL Advance on the First Battle of Passchendaele, 8th Black Watch, 10th A&S, 7th Seaforths and 5th Cameron Highlanders, advancing between Banff House and Wallermolen captured Adler Farm and then the advance came to a halt under intense MG fire 100 yards from the start line. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 14 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2005 quote=Malcolm,[May 14 2005, 10:07 PM] Medal card of Brogan, William Corps Regiment No Rank Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 2474 Lance Corporal Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 6117 Lance Corporal Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 303311 Lance Corporal Date 1914-1920 Catalogue reference WO 372/3 Derek - many thanks for the map. Gives me something to look up and find out about. The three service numbers came from the mic quoted above - I thought it couldn't be him at first because of the lance-corporal bit as the CWGC clearly says private, but the final number is the same as his. Just a thought - there couldn't be two William Brogans with the same number in the A&SH? (GROAN). Shall investigate further - but I appreciate the map and info. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 14 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2005 Derek - many apologies - attributed the map elsewhere - my eye jumped an avatar! Thank YOU! Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 14 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2005 Just re discovered the edit button - sorry about the confusion. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 15 May , 2005 Share Posted 15 May , 2005 Marina, The 3 numbers do appear strange (to me anyway). Two numbers I could have understood as this was quite normal in my experience. Quite alot of my KOSB men had been Territorials and they had their numbers changed to the 6 numbered army system later on. Also, and it seems quite a Scottish problem, that medals carry the mans earlier number while the CWGC and SDGW use his later, army number. It is only when you check the relevant MICs that you find that they are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 15 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2005 Marina, The 3 numbers do appear strange (to me anyway). Two numbers I could have understood as this was quite normal in my experience. Quite alot of my KOSB men had been Territorials and they had their numbers changed to the 6 numbered army system later on. Also, and it seems quite a Scottish problem, that medals carry the mans earlier number while the CWGC and SDGW use his later, army number. It is only when you check the relevant MICs that you find that they are the same. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A mystery, then! It's possible he was in the TA, but I don't know how likely as he was only 21 in 1917. He's a 'lost' relative - absolutely nothing known about him. I only discovered his existence yesterday - will speak to some elderly family this week and see if there are any faint memories floating around. That's if it's him at all - from the address in Dumbarton it seems likely - I'll have to check on that too and if it's right, I can do some more digging. Thanks, Derek, Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott henderson Posted 15 May , 2005 Share Posted 15 May , 2005 Marina. This is not much help to your research of the 10th battalions part in the battle but my Grandfather was in the 14th battalion A&SH and he had 3 service numbers, 6668 on his medals & M.I.C S/30729 on the M.I.C 278202 [7th battalion number] in his P.O.W diary. Not much help i know but you are not alone in trying to understand the Army numbering system. Scott. PS. 303311 is an 8th battalion number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 15 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2005 PS. 303311 is an 8th battalion number. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 8th battalion? Could he have been moved around? Once I find out if for sure if this is my great uncle, I'll get the whole mic and see if that helps us understand! I used to think in my ignorance that once a man had his number, it stayed the same for always! If only... Thanks, Scott. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 15 May , 2005 Share Posted 15 May , 2005 Does anyone have any info on this battalion's part in this battle? I have just discovered a great uncle who was KIA on that date. Also, does anyone know why he would have three service numbers? He's William Brogan of Dumbarton, service nos. 2474, 6117, and 303311, who served in the 10th Battalion, the Argylls. Thanks, Marina <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Marina If you don't already have it, I have a copy of the Bn History (lt Col Herbert G Sotheby, DSO, MVO) - send me a PM with your address and I'' photo copy the relevant pages and send them to you. Cheers Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 15 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2005 Addie on the way, Steve - thanks a lot. This is much appreciated. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 15 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2005 Ignore first email - sent you my email addie! M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Marina If you don't already have it, I have a copy of the Bn History (lt Col Herbert G Sotheby, DSO, MVO) - send me a PM with your address and I'' photo copy the relevant pages and send them to you. Cheers Steven <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Many thanks to Steve who has sent me the chapter dealing with the day in question. What an account it is - there's the story of an officer stuck in the mud of a shell hole up to his waist and having to be pulled out with ropes. And also a mention of casualties among men with dogs which resulted in dogs running wild in the battle. QUESTION: One of GFW's artists drew dogs in a picture of a trench being overrun - does anyone know what the dogs were used for at the front? Again, thanks to Steve for a rivetting read! Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 QUESTION: One of GFW's artists drew dogs in a picture of a trench being overrun - does anyone know what the dogs were used for at the front? Marina <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Carrying messages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Carrying messages? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I really have no idea! But I supoose a dog could be trained for that - don't see why not! They did use pigeons after all. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 hello marina,your bloke may only have two numbers,i,ll explain,he may have served before,then left the army,that the 1st number,when the war broke out,he enlisted again,thats the 2nd number,the third number could be the one issued to him after he was killed,for some daft reason the army renumbered soldiers who were killed or taken prisoner,i think your man is one of them,best regards,bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Marina, See Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Malcolm - thanks for that. Messengers, sentry, guards - always useful always faithful. Poor things to be out there. marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 they shouldnt use animals in war,wars are for humans to start and finish,not for frightened creaturs who dont know whats going on,bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 they shouldnt use animals in war,<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Though the Charge of the Light Brigade wouldn't quite have gone down in legend without them!!! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 dave,do they have a surrender logo on here,i never thought about the horses,i dont think the light brigade would look very impressive charging down the valley on bikes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 And according to Malcolm's post, the dogs were more successful messengers than men sometimes. If using them saved men's lives...well... marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 hello marina,i suppose your right,its me,i like animals and i tend to forget things like that,bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 29 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2005 Oh, I know what you mean - it's unbearable to think of the dogs and horses and what they suffered. They trust us people so much and look where they ended up. At least they are remembered. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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