Pte Charles Starkman J/1956 - Royal Fusiliers

[drsusancohen]

Can anyone tell me where the Royal Fusiliers were located  / theatre of war between January 1918 and January 1919? And does anyone know whether World War One Pension Ledgers and Record Cards ( for which i have reference) have survived, and if so where? Thanks

[Donald D]

You would need to know which Battalion he was serving with. Have a look at the Long Long Trail website under army. Link provided on blue band above. Also a name and date of birth, along with where he lived would help.

[PRC]

43 minutes ago, drsusancohen said:

Can anyone tell me where the Royal Fusiliers were located  / theatre of war between January 1918 and January 1919? And does anyone know whether World War One Pension Ledgers and Record Cards ( for which i have reference) have survived, and if so where?

Hi @drsusancohen and welcome to the forum

As has already been alluded, there were many, many Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers serving in practically every Theatre of a near Global War as well as in the UK. You mention Pension Ledger Cards, so do you have a service number and name for the individual(s) you are interested in?

Some of the Ministry of Pension Ledger Cards and Record Cards have survived - members of the Western Front Association found them in a Builders skip outside an office being refurbished.They subsequently did a deal with Ancestry. A basic transcript can be read on the Ancestry.co.uk website if you have the appropriate subscription, while images of the cards themselves can be seen on Ancestrys' US sister site, Fold 3, which requires a separate subscription. Free trials to Ancestry and Fold 3 are usually available, but you do have to be pro-active to stop them taking the payment for the subscription if you don't need access any longer. Alternatively if all you are interested in is the Pension Ledger Cards then I'm led to believe that membership of the Western Front Association which includes access to the images on Fold 3 is a much cheaper option.

And perhaps something to save for when you're clearer about which Battalion you are interested is the official Regiment History for the period which is freely available on the internet here:-https://archive.org/details/royalfusiliersin00onei/page/n5/mode/2up?q="Royal+Fusiliers+in+the+Great+War"

Cheers,
Peter

[drsusancohen]

 

 Thanks very much for the help. His name was Private Charles Starkman, Service number J1956, born c. 1887, ( in Eastern Europe )  38th-40th Battalions Royal Fusiliers (London) which I now know were the Jewish battalions.  I had found out that he was in service from 30 January 1918 until he was discharged on 18 January 1919, as a casualty. The official Regiment history is  very illuminating indeed, and it looks as if the Jewish Battalions ere all posted to Egypt. I think his daughter, who is now 91, will be most interested as her dad never spoke about his war experience. The tip about automatic payments being taken is a timely reminder to end my free trial of Ancestry ! 

[PRC]

Unfortunately nothing on his Medal Index Card to indicate he ever served overseas. He was honourably discharged in January 1919 on grounds of sickness and so received the Silver War Badge.

There is an administrative document called the Silver War Badge Roll, an image of which can be seen in Ancestry. The amount of information contained on these beyond date of enlistment and date of discharge can vary enormously. Some add additional information about the specific unit discharged from, some provide a statement as to whether the soldier concerned had seen service overseas or not, some are more specific about the nature of the sickness - it's real pot luck but worth checking out before you give up your access.

If his ill health was as a result of his service or aggravated by it, then he may also have received a disability pension - which I assume is why  you asked

I don't subscribe to either Ancestry or Fold 3 so can't tell if it's a red herring or contains anything useful, but there looks like there is a record card in the name of Charles Starkman, service number 1956, on Fold 3.

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

6 hours ago, drsusancohen said:

does anyone know whether World War One Pension Ledgers and Record Cards ( for which i have reference) have survived, and if so where?

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

If his ill health was as a result of his service or aggravated by it, then he may also have received a disability pension - which I assume is why  you asked

I don't subscribe to either Ancestry or Fold 3 so can't tell if it's a red herring or contains anything useful, but there looks like there is a record card in the name of Charles Starkman, service number 1956, on Fold 3.

Susan, Welcome to GWF.

This is the pension index card I believe is being referred to [anyway it's the only one I found]

Image thanks to Western Front Association / Fold3

A temporary disability pension award was made after his discharge 18.1.19.  Awarded 8/3 pw from 19.1.19 to 22.7.19 

Under the 1918 Royal Warrant that quantum represented the 30% degree of disability rate for a pension Class V soldier/Pte - without any other evidence to hand that rather looks like his total award, so seemingly no on-going disability. Of course you/others may know the situation better

M

[drsusancohen]

As far as I know from his daughter, ( now 91) there was never any suggestion that he father had a disability, but I will ask the question. I had located this card on Fold 3/Ancestry, and the details match up with other info I have, but there is nothing more than that page. It would be satisfying to know if he was deployed abroad

Thank you very much indeed. 

[PRC]

11 hours ago, drsusancohen said:

It would be satisfying to know if he was deployed abroad

If he served outside the UK before the armistice then he would have qualified for at least one service medal - if in a theatre of war then two. Other ranks had theirs sent out automatically to their last known address. Because the relevant medals could run to thousands of pages, the clerks at the records office raised Medal Index Cards to help them keep track of correspondence and the location on the rolls of the relevant entry. The card that can be found in the National Archive Catalogue is in the different format associated with just the issue of the Silver War Badge, which reflects he was honourably discharged, not where he served.

Just to confuse matters some records offices did add a stamp to the SWB cards so they could then also be used for Service Medals details, but there is nothing like that on the card for Charles.

Of course mistakes happen and looking at the pension card posted above it look like the fourth letter in the surname has been amended to show a half height upper case "R". I've tried searching by service number and unit in case there are other records under a variation of the surname, but have drawn a blank.

A quick look at publicly available information for near service numbers brings up:-
J/1953 Louis Weinberg - no MiC but FindMyPast has surviving service records. FMP have indexed him as born Russia c1882, and that they commence in 1918. familysearch confirms that they are burnt series records, (so Ancestry are likely to have them as service records rather than pensions records). They add that he was resident London.
J/1954 Abraham Barew - no MiC but FindMyPast has surviving service records. FMP have indexed him as born Russia c1894, and that they commence in 1918. familysearch confirms that they are burnt series records, (so Ancestry are likely to have them as service records rather than pensions records). They add that he was resident London.
J/1955 Samuel Loufer - MiC & Medal Roll but no surviving service record. Received Victory Medal & British War Medal. Medal Roll should show you which unit(s) he served with overseas.

J/1957 - J/1961 No obvious records.
J/1962 Simon Kloss - MiC & Medal Roll but no surviving service record. Received Victory Medal & British War Medal. Medal Roll should show you which unit(s) he served with overseas.
J/1963 - J/1964 No obvious records.
J/1965 Samuel Leapman. MiC for Silver War Badge only. FindMyPast has surviving service records. FMP have indexed him as born London c1882 Edit c1900, and that they commence in 1917 when he was called up \ conscripted into the Training Reserve. familysearch confirms that they are unburnt series records, (so Ancestry are likely to have them as pension records). They add that he was resident Middlesex.

So may help firm up when Charles Starkman enlisted and how at least the early stages of his time in the British Army might have gone.

It may be my incompetence but I'm struggling to spot Charles Starkman in the 1911 and 1921 Censuses of England & Wales, the 1939 Register for England & Wales, the civil marriage records for England & Wales, the civil death records for England & Wales and the Outbound passenger lists from the UK. Nor does he turn up in the likes of the British Jewry Book of Honour - or at least not under that surname. https://www.jewsfww.uk/roll-of-honour.php

Cheers
Peter

Edited 26 April by PRC
Got carried away with copy and pasting!

[kenf48]

10 hours ago, drsusancohen said:

It would be satisfying to know if he was deployed abroad

 

Pte J/1956 Charles Starkman enlisted on the 3rd January 1918 and was discharged (Kings Regulations 392 xvi - no longer physically fir for war service) due to sickness on the 18th January 1919.  He had no overseas service and was aged 29 years

Silver War Badge Roll on Ancestry if you subscribe.

Leapman referred to by Peter above was discharged from the 42nd (Reserve) Battalion see LLT 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-fusiliers-city-of-london-regiment/

as this was the only Jewish Labour Battalion that remained in the UK it was probably where Pte Starkman spent his service.

Pte Leapman, for example  was discharged as a consequence of frequent bouts of bronchitis which he had suffered from childhood; Pte Weinberg suffered from appendicitis and refused an operation due to poor health. 

 I imagine Pte Starkman probably suffered from similar diseases of inner city poverty and overcrowding, which rendered him unfit for overseas service.

 

 

[PRC]

43 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Pte J/1956 Charles Starkman enlisted on the 3rd January 1918 and was discharged (Kings Regulations 392 xvi - no longer physically fir for war service) due to sickness on the 18th January 1919.  He had no overseas service and was aged 29 years

Silver War Badge Roll on Ancestry if you subscribe.

Leapman referred to by Peter above was discharged from the 42nd (Reserve) Battalion see LLT 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-fusiliers-city-of-london-regiment/ as this was the only Jewish Labour Battalion that remained in the UK it was probably where Pte Starkman spent his service.

Pte Leapman, for example  was discharged as a consequence of frequent bouts of bronchitis which he had suffered from childhood; Pte Weinberg suffered from appendicitis and refused an operation due to poor health. 

 I imagine Pte Starkman probably suffered from similar diseases of inner city poverty and overcrowding, which rendered him unfit for overseas service.

Thanks Ken.

As Leapman was born London presumably a British National by birth and so subject to the Military Service Act, called up when he was 18.

The others' were probably Russian nationals. Something I've not got clear in my own head generally was whether such individuals were now allowed to volunteer following Russia sueing for peace under the new Bolshevik government, or whether that change made them liable for conscription. Or indeed if that was totally irrelevant.

If it's not too much trouble is there anything in the surviving service records for Weinberg and Barew that sheds any light on whether they were volunteers or conscripts as that would also apply to Starkman.

Cheers,
Peter

[kenf48]

 

2 hours ago, PRC said:

If it's not too much trouble is there anything in the surviving service records for Weinberg and Barew that sheds any light on whether they were volunteers or conscripts as that would also apply to Starkman.

No trouble at all

Pte. Weinberg's record is in fact, a "pension" record and shows he was 'Deemed to have enlisted" i.e. conscripted and placed on the Army Reserve on the 26th September 1917.

He was called up for service on the 7th January 1918 and  posted to 24 T.R.Bn (TR10/91374) but on the 28th January 1918 posted to the 38th (Service) Battalion  Royal Fusiliers according to the LLT formed from Jewish volunteers on the 20th January.  He was posted to the 39th Battalion the following day and finally on the 11th February 1918 posted to the 42nd Battalion.  He was discharged on the 23rd April 1918.  There is a note that he (continued) to be liable to receive a statutory notice under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act 1917.  

I suspect he, and his comrades were conscripted under the terms of this Act which amended the original 1916 M.S.Act which applied to men 'ordinarily resident in Great Britain'.

Pte Barew who stated he was Russian on mobilisation at Stratford on the 9th January 1918. He was attested on AF B2513 i.e. 'deemed to be enlisted'  His record mirrors that of Pte. Weinberg save for the fact he was 'deemed to have enlisted' on the 2nd March 1916. Again, he appears to have fallen foul of the M.S. (Review of Exceptions) Act 1917.  we don't know on what grounds he had secured exemption from military service but my guess is that it was medical, i.e. rheumatic fever age 16 years leading to pain in his legs and breathlessness final diagnosis which precluded any military service was V.D.H. ( for the OP - Valvular Disease of the heart).

It appears they both received a gratuity of £7 10 shillings on discharge with non-attributable medical conditions.

Weinberg's entry on SWB Roll mirrors that of Pte Starkman. It appears Barew did not apply for/was not issued one.

 

 

[PRC]

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Pte. Weinberg's record is in fact, a "pension" record and shows he was 'Deemed to have enlisted" i.e. conscripted and placed on the Army Reserve on the 26th September 1917.

He was called up for service on the 7th January 1918 and  posted to 24 T.R.Bn (TR10/91374) but on the 28th January 1918 posted to the 38th (Service) Battalion  Royal Fusiliers according to the LLT formed from Jewish volunteers on the 20th January.  He was posted to the 39th Battalion the following day and finally on the 11th February 1918 posted to the 42nd Battalion.  He was discharged on the 23rd April 1918.  There is a note that he (continued) to be liable to receive a statutory notice under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act 1917.  

I suspect he, and his comrades were conscripted under the terms of this Act which amended the original 1916 M.S.Act which applied to men 'ordinarily resident in Great Britain'.

Pte Barew who stated he was Russian on mobilisation at Stratford on the 9th January 1918. He was attested on AF B2513 i.e. 'deemed to be enlisted'  His record mirrors that of Pte. Weinberg save for the fact he was 'deemed to have enlisted' on the 2nd March 1916. Again, he appears to have fallen foul of the M.S. (Review of Exceptions) Act 1917.  we don't know on what grounds he had secured exemption from military service but my guess is that it was medical, i.e. rheumatic fever age 16 years leading to pain in his legs and breathlessness final diagnosis which precluded any military service was V.D.H. ( for the OP - Valvular Disease of the heart).

It appears they both received a gratuity of £7 10 shillings on discharge with non-attributable medical conditions.

Weinberg's entry on SWB Roll mirrors that of Pte Starkman. It appears Barew did not apply for/was not issued one.

Thanks Ken - every day a schoolday on the forum ,

Cheers,
Peter

[drsusancohen]

Everyone has been so helpful, and thank you for the information. I do know that Charles Starkman died on 19 June 1969, and is buried at Rainham Jewish cemetery. He was born circa 1878, possibly in Poland  (Greater Russia) - he was from a very poor family, most likely coming to England to escape the anti-Jewish Pogroms in Eastern Europe. Like so many of his fellow Jews, he settled in the East End of London. His wife was 13 years younger than him, and their 4 children were born between 1928 and 1933. Does the attached shed any more light on his service? 

There is a  possibility that his name was not Charles and that he had a Jewish/yiddish name and that this was anglicised. He is certainly elusive in the public records. You are right, he was not in the AJEX Roll of Honour, but that is being rectified. 

Thanks again

Susan

 

[Matlock1418]

11 minutes ago, drsusancohen said:

Does the attached shed any more light on his service? 

You have enlistment and discharge dates - but I guess you had already spotted those.

It does not show any medals as might be awarded for overseas theatre of war service - rather suggesting Home Service only - instead it shows he was listed for a Silver War Badge having been discharged under KR para 392 xvi, S[ickness] as unfit for military service [As Peter had noted above]

M

Edited 28 April by Matlock1418