Herbert Montrose Singer - 8th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment

[FrancesH]

Herbert Montrose Singer went through Sandhurst and joined 7th Battalion of the Dragoon Guards in 1909. However, he resigned his commission at his colonel's request in 1912 for 'personal reasons'. This was because the colonel had received a letter exposing Singer as homosexual (he had been arrested in France in 1907). On 6 January 1915 Singer applied for and was given a temporary commission as lieutenant. He specifically named 8/Lancs Regt as his preferred destination, a wish which was granted. He grew up in Devon and London and I can find no Lancashire connection. Can anyone suggest any reason why he would pick this particular battalion and this particular regiment? 

I realise this is a long shot but all suggestions welcome!

[michaeldr]

3 hours ago, FrancesH said:

On 6 January 1915 Singer applied for and was given a temporary commission as lieutenant. He specifically named 8/Lancs Regt as his preferred destination, a wish which was granted.

That should be 8^th Battalion, East Lancashire Regiment: see https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29093/supplement/2355 

[FrancesH]

Apologies, Michael! You're absolutely right, my mistake. I don't know why I misread what Singer had very clearly written!

[michaeldr]

Frances, I suggest that you edit the title of your threat so as to show the correct regiment 
and thereby gain the attention of an 8th East Lancs expert who may be able to help 
Good luck with your research
Michael

[PhilB]

8th East Lancs were at Ludgershall, Wiltshire, not too far from Devon, from March to July 1915. Maybe he had acquaintances in the battalion?

[FrancesH]

3 hours ago, michaeldr said:

Frances, I suggest that you edit the title of your threat so as to show the correct regiment 
and thereby gain the attention of an 8th East Lancs expert who may be able to help 
Good luck with your research
Michael

I've realised I don't know how to edit the title ... can you or someone else tell me? Sorry!

3 hours ago, PhilB said:

8th East Lancs were at Ludgershall, Wiltshire, not too far from Devon, from March to July 1915. Maybe he had acquaintances in the battalion?

That's an interesting thought, thank you.

[PhilB]

It seems he didn`t resign his commission! London Gazette:-

He does appear in the Sept 1915 Army List as Captain 8th EL though.

[Matlock1418]

11 hours ago, FrancesH said:

Can anyone suggest any reason why he would pick this particular battalion and this particular regiment? 

My first though was that he was seeking a fresh start away from anyone who knew of his 'history' = ???

5 hours ago, PhilB said:

8th East Lancs were at Ludgershall, Wiltshire, not too far from Devon, from March to July 1915. Maybe he had acquaintances in the battalion?

Sounds plausible, but ... ???

2 hours ago, FrancesH said:

I've realised I don't know how to edit the title ... can you or someone else tell me?

It's been edited for you but in case needed in the future ... Hover your mouse pointer over the thread title and then click follow the 'Edit' option.

M

[PhilB]

I suspect that he wouldn’t specifically request to join the 8th East Lancs unless he was fairly confident that they would have him and that confirmation would have to come from a high level in that battalion - Colonel or Adjutant?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PhilB said:

I suspect that he wouldn’t specifically request to join the 8th East Lancs unless he was fairly confident that they would have him and that confirmation would have to come from a high level in that battalion - Colonel or Adjutant?

I think you’re very likely right that he knew someone in the battalion and had laid his ground carefully, not least because of his background.  I suspect like you Phil that he’d received some assurances from someone of influence.  There would have been no point in his being so specific else.  

Edited 31 January by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

I can’t explain this from Geni. Sergeant, Royal West Kent’s in 1918.

Herbert Montrose Singer
Birthdate:	July 22, 1888
Birthplace:	Paignton (Totnes RD), Devon, England UK
Death:
Immediate Family:	Son of Paris Eugene Singer and Cecilia Singer Brother of Cecil Mortimer Singer; Etheleen Winnaretta Singer; Paris Graham Singer and George Farquhar Singer Half brother of Patrick Augustus Duncan
Occupation:	1891 - 2; 1911 2nd Lieutenant 7th Dragoon Guards; 1918 Sergeant Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment
Managed by:	Private User
Last Updated:	April 26, 2022     And an MM? About Herbert Montrose Singer British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920 Name: Herbert Montrose Singer Gender: Male Birth Date: abt 1888 Enlistment Age: 29 Document Year: 1917 Residence Place: 121 Sloane St, London SW 1 Regimental Number: 20688 Regiment Name: Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment Number of Images: 25 Form Title: Record of Service Awarded Military Medal Family Members: Name Relation to Soldier Herbert Montrose Singer Self (Head) Mrs Paris Singer Mother

Edited 31 January by PhilB

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, PhilB said:

I can’t explain this from Geni. Sergeant, Royal West Kent’s in 1918.

Herbert Montrose Singer
Birthdate:	July 22, 1888
Birthplace:	Paignton (Totnes RD), Devon, England UK
Death:
Immediate Family:	Son of Paris Eugene Singer and Cecilia Singer Brother of Cecil Mortimer Singer; Etheleen Winnaretta Singer; Paris Graham Singer and George Farquhar Singer Half brother of Patrick Augustus Duncan
Occupation:	1891 - 2; 1911 2nd Lieutenant 7th Dragoon Guards; 1918 Sergeant Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment
Managed by:	Private User
Last Updated:	April 26, 2022     And an MM? About Herbert Montrose Singer British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920 Name: Herbert Montrose Singer Gender: Male Birth Date: abt 1888 Enlistment Age: 29 Document Year: 1917 Residence Place: 121 Sloane St, London SW 1 Regimental Number: 20688 Regiment Name: Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment Number of Images: 25 Form Title: Record of Service Awarded Military Medal Family Members: Name Relation to Soldier Herbert Montrose Singer Self (Head) Mrs Paris Singer Mother

It looks like he probably resigned his commission again if Frances is correct that his application to the East Lancashire’s was successful, and then subsequently either, enlisted voluntarily, or was conscripted as a ranker.  Unsurprisingly then, given his past military training, plus some experience, that he subsequently made it to sergeant.

Edited 31 January by FROGSMILE

[ForeignGong]

LG Nov 1912 Resigns Comm https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28663/page/8375

LG Feb 1916 Cashiered https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29488/supplement/2086

So had two years to get back to Sgt there is an MIC for a Herbert M Singer is this him courtesy of NA

Edited 31 January by ForeignGong

[FrancesH]

Thank you so much for editing the title and for the useful advice on doing it myself!

Thanks also for other comments. What happened was that Herbert joined 8 East Lancs but only very briefly. He was arrested at their depot in Wareham on 28 Oct 1915 but on 24 Nov he was arrested and taken to London. He was court martialled on seven charges of 'gross indecency with a male person' involving four men and unusually, pleaded guilty on all counts. (Most men, particularly those from middle/upper class families, said they were drunk AND COULD REMEMBER NOTHING). Herbert was one of a group of officers court martialled for this offence in the spring of 1916 but, as the son of Paris Singer, the fabulously wealthy son of Isaac Singer (sewing machines), who was prominent in high society and a friend of the King, Herbert's case was, as noted repeatedly in his file by officials 'a most important case', 'a highly significant case'. The War Office hired Sir Archibald Bodkin, one of the most famous (and no doubt expensive) lawyers of his day, to prosecute. 

Herbert served his sentence at Pentonville and was then conscripted into the army again, now serving with the Royal West Kents. On 23 Aug 1918, by then a lance-corporal, he was awarded the Military Medal and promoted to sergeant for taking command of his platoon after his officer and sergeant had both become casualties, and successfully taking the objective through heavy machine gun fire.

Herbert Montrose Singer committed suicide by overdose in 1941.

A number of this group of officers were from wealthy families and connected in various ways. Despite subsequent weeding there is some evidence scattered through different officers' service files that the Military Police had the cooperation of the Metropolitan Police ('who have the experience in this sort of thing' as one WO comment notes) to gather evidence throughout the summer and early autumn of 1915 before arrests and a series of court martials in the spring of 1916. 

And yes, I absolutely feel that Herbert would not have singled out 8/East Lancs without feeling sure that someone senior -- CO or adjutant -- would be welcoming. -- hence this post. If anyone knows if either of them had high social connections/went to Marlborough that would be of interest. 

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, FrancesH said:

Thank you so much for editing the title and for the useful advice on doing it myself!

Thanks also for other comments. What happened was that Herbert joined 8 East Lancs but only very briefly. He was arrested at their depot in Wareham on 28 Oct 1915 but on 24 Nov he was arrested and taken to London. He was court martialled on seven charges of 'gross indecency with a male person' involving four men and unusually, pleaded guilty on all counts. (Most men, particularly those from middle/upper class families, said they were drunk AND COULD REMEMBER NOTHING). Herbert was one of a group of officers court martialled for this offence in the spring of 1916 but, as the son of Paris Singer, the fabulously wealthy son of Isaac Singer (sewing machines), who was prominent in high society and a friend of the King, Herbert's case was, as noted repeatedly in his file by officials 'a most important case', 'a highly significant case'. The War Office hired Sir Archibald Bodkin, one of the most famous (and no doubt expensive) lawyers of his day, to prosecute. 

Herbert served his sentence at Pentonville and was then conscripted into the army again, now serving with the Royal West Kents. On 23 Aug 1918, by then a lance-corporal, he was awarded the Military Medal and promoted to sergeant for taking command of his platoon after his officer and sergeant had both become casualties, and successfully taking the objective through heavy machine gun fire.

Herbert Montrose Singer committed suicide by overdose in 1941.

A number of this group of officers were from wealthy families and connected in various ways. Despite subsequent weeding there is some evidence scattered through different officers' service files that the Military Police had the cooperation of the Metropolitan Police ('who have the experience in this sort of thing' as one WO comment notes) to gather evidence throughout the summer and early autumn of 1915 before arrests and a series of court martials in the spring of 1916. 

And yes, I absolutely feel that Herbert would not have singled out 8/East Lancs without feeling sure that someone senior -- CO or adjutant -- would be welcoming. -- hence this post. If anyone knows if either of them had high social connections/went to Marlborough that would be of interest. 

Thank you for the feedback Frances, I always enjoy reading your posts that invariably are evocative of the different social, military and moral attitudes of those times, and quite fascinating.  This thread being yet another example of that.

I hope it’s possible to find out something of the background of the CO and Adjutant of 8th East Lancs and establish if there’s a link.  It’s the sort of thing one of the fantastic genealogists here might be able to uncover.

A minor point for you to know is that each regiment has only one “depot” (which is also its headquarters**) and in the case of the East Lancs it was at Preston and shared with the Loyal North Lancs.  Thus Wareham would perhaps be described as 8th East Lancs - a War ‘Service’ Battalion - base, or station.

**Territorial Force battalions were different in also having their own individual headquarters centred on the local recruiting area and located at its principal drill station (aka drill hall).

Edited 1 February by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

Army List, Sept 1915, 8EL:-

CO Bt Col J S Melville retd Indian Army

2i/c Maj B H B Magrath late Indian Army

Adj Capt H B Barrett

Temp Capt H M Singer

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Army List, Sept 1915, 8EL:-

CO Bt Col J S Melville retd Indian Army

2i/c Maj B H B Magrath late Indian Army

Adj Capt H B Barrett

Temp Capt H M Singer

The Singer name is significant, as pointed out by Frances, so I wonder if his father pulled strings with one of the senior officers and laid the groundwork.  The Service battalions were often formed via civic influence and institutions so there might be a link there given the business interests of Singer senior.  He himself was a bit of an old roue, and whilst not of the same persuasion certainly had a contemporaneously continental take on morals.  I don’t live very far from the family home and his historical legacy is of considerable local importance.

Edited 1 February by FROGSMILE

[FrancesH]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you for the feedback Frances, I always enjoy reading your posts that invariably are evocative of the different social, military and moral attitudes of those times, and quite fascinating.  This thread being yet another example of that.

I hope it’s possible to find out something of the background of the CO and Adjutant of 8th East Lancs and establish if there’s a link.  It’s the sort of thing one of the fantastic genealogists here might be able to uncover.

A minor point for you to know is that each regiment has only one “depot” (which is also its headquarters**) and in the case of the East Lancs it was at Preston and shared with the Loyal North Lancs.  Thus Wareham would perhaps be described as 8th East Lancs - a War ‘Service’ Battalion - base, or station.

**Territorial Force battalions were different in also having their own individual headquarters centred on the local recruiting area and located at its principal drill station (aka drill hall).

As always, Frogsmile, praise from you is very much appreciated! Thank you also for a further update on my inadequate knowledge of army terminology. I imagine myself as a terrified 2nd/Lt not knowing the right terms and being sneered at in the mess ... but you didn't sneer which is appreciated!

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, FrancesH said:

As always, Frogsmile, praise from you is very much appreciated! Thank you also for a further update on my inadequate knowledge of army terminology. I imagine myself as a terrified 2nd/Lt not knowing the right terms and being sneered at in the mess ... but you didn't sneer which is appreciated!

I think you’ve picked up an enormous amount of military knowledge from a standing start and sincerely hope that you will continue to write on similar subjects.  It’s all been very engaging.

[FrancesH]

18 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Army List, Sept 1915, 8EL:-

CO Bt Col J S Melville retd Indian Army

2i/c Maj B H B Magrath late Indian Army

Adj Capt H B Barrett

Temp Capt H M Singer

Thank you so much for these names Phil! And yes, Frogsmile, I think his father would certainly have done all he could to help. Although his parents became estranged from each other, there's plenty of evidence that they both continued to support and help their son.

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, FrancesH said:

Thank you so much for these names Phil! And yes, Frogsmile, I think his father would certainly have done all he could to help. Although his parents became estranged from each other, there's plenty of evidence that they both continued to support and help their son.

The more I muse on it the more I think that it is by far the most likely explanation.  I suspect that Singer senior called in a favour.

Edited 1 February by FROGSMILE

[FrancesH]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

I think you’ve picked up an enormous amount of military knowledge from a standing start and sincerely hope that you will continue to write on similar subjects.  It’s all been very engaging.

Oh, thank you so much!!

By the way if anyone is interested, I have been invited to speak on this topic as part of a panel discussion on 'Queer Histories' at the Common Press Bookshop, 118 Bethnal Green Road, London E2 6DG, on 1 March. Doors open 6.30 and the discussion begins at 7. The other panellists are published authors.

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, FrancesH said:

Oh, thank you so much!!

By the way if anyone is interested, I have been invited to speak on this topic as part of a panel discussion on 'Queer Histories' at the Common Press Bookshop, 118 Bethnal Green Road, London E2 6DG, on 1 March. Doors open 6.30 and the discussion begins at 7. The other panellists are published authors.

The family home was at Oldway Mansion in Paignton, a splendid residence that through municipal neglect and incompetence has fallen into disrepair.  It was used as a military hospital and convalescent home during the war.  I’m sure the Singers must have felt they were doing their bit…

Edited 1 February by FROGSMILE

[FrancesH]

Frogsmile thank you so much for these pictures!! What a pity Oldway is in disrepair. I've seen some splendid pictures of the interior in its prime.

Paris Singer actually equipped and funded FOUR military hospitals during the war. I do wonder how the King felt when he gave his approval for Herbert to be cashiered -- as he knew his father, he would certainly at least have known of him personally. 

I just feel so sorry for Paris Singer and the family and indeed for the other families involved when their sons were court martialled. As I said, the Singers remained supportive of Herbert throughout the war, but not all other parents felt the same. I think I've mentioned elsewhere that Wilfrid Marsden, who had been in Cotton House at Marlborough with Herbert, was disowned by his father George. George's will was written in such a way that he not only left nothing to Wilfrid, but had specific clauses stating that if his wife and younger son left anything to him after George's death that their legacies would be annulled. I'm not sure that's legally possible, but it does display a marked degree of venom.

[PhilB]

I think we should add that Singer turned out to be an excellent fighting soldier.