John Goodall 10583 Lincolnshire and 65594 Labour Corps

[loujn]

I am trying to help a chap research his grandfather.  The soldier had served with the Lincolnshire Regiment prior to WW1, done his time and left to start his civilian life as a roadman, until being recalled and attesting on 28th August 1914.  He was just under 28 years of age.  He remained in the UK, being posted to the 6th, 9th and then 3rd Lincolns until March 1916 when he was sent to join the BEF in France with the 2nd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment.  

He received a gsw to his back on what looks like 1st July 1916 and was sent home, rejoining the 3rd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment.

After this I am a bit confused.......

 

12^th December 1916 – transferred to the 18^th Battalion Queens Royal West Surrey Regiment**

5^th January 1917 – transferred to the 2^nd Infantry Labour Corps of the Queens Royal West Surrey Regiment

9th May 1917 – transferred to 110 Army Service Corps (ASC) Labour Corps

 

I've read up on the LLT about the Labour Corps and I as far as i understand: the 18th Battalion QRWSR was a labour battalion, which I assume he was posted to now as he had been injured and also his civilian occupation of roadman would be perfect for a labour battalion.  I also read about the Army Council Act 611 and see this reflected in his transfer to the 110 Labour Corps.

 

I would like to know where the 18th were based, nothing on his records says he goes back over seas.  Would he have remained in the UK for the remainder of his service?

 

Is there anywhere else we can get any information on his time with these labour corps?  I assume they didn't have a war diary?

 

Thank you in advance, any information / suggestions will be most welcome.

 

[GWF1967]

36 minutes ago, loujn said:

I am trying to help a chap research his grandfather.  The soldier had served with the Lincolnshire Regiment prior to WW1, done his time and left to start his civilian life as a roadman, until being recalled and attesting on 28th August 1914.  He was just under 28 years of age.  He remained in the UK, being posted to the 6th, 9th and then 3rd Lincolns until March 1916 when he was sent to join the BEF in France with the 2nd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment.  

He received a gsw to his back on what looks like 1st July 1916 and was sent home, rejoining the 3rd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment.

After this I am a bit confused.......

 

12^th December 1916 – transferred to the 18^th Battalion Queens Royal West Surrey Regiment**

5^th January 1917 – transferred to the 2^nd Infantry Labour Corps of the Queens Royal West Surrey Regiment

9th May 1917 – transferred to 110 Army Service Corps (ASC) Labour Corps

 

I've read up on the LLT about the Labour Corps and I as far as i understand: the 18th Battalion QRWSR was a labour battalion, which I assume he was posted to now as he had been injured and also his civilian occupation of roadman would be perfect for a labour battalion.  I also read about the Army Council Act 611 and see this reflected in his transfer to the 110 Labour Corps.

 

I would like to know where the 18th were based, nothing on his records says he goes back over seas.  Would he have remained in the UK for the remainder of his service?

 

Is there anywhere else we can get any information on his time with these labour corps?  I assume they didn't have a war diary?

 

Thank you in advance, any information / suggestions will be most welcome.

 

can you post a service No.please?

[PRC]

59 minutes ago, loujn said:

The soldier had served with the Lincolnshire Regiment prior to WW1, done his time and left to start his civilian life as a roadman, until being recalled and attesting on 28th August 1914.  He was just under 28 years of age. 

 

The standard engagement in the Regular Army was 12 years - usually 7 in the colours, and 5 in the reserves. He couldn't sign up until he was 18 - before that he could be a boy soldier up to his 18th birthday. So unless he was dishonourably discharged, medically discharged or purchased his release, if he was 28 at the outbreak of the war then he was still in the Army, but as a reservist, liable to be recalled on the outbreak of hostilities. Like most reservists he took up a civilian occupation to support himself financially.

 

If he "attested" on the 28th August 1914 - i.e. signed a new enlistment form, then one of those routes to discharge must have applied. If, more likely, he was a mobilised reservist then if he didn't report until the 28th August 1914 he was committing a military offence and would have needed a very good excuse.

 

The reservists who did return at the correct time would have been assessed and the best of them in terms of fitness \ up to date military knowledge would have been sent to the 1st Battalion, Lincolnshire Regiment to bring it up to full wartime strength in order to go to France - it landed at Le Havre on the 14th August 1914. The rest would be held back for fitness training and skills updates in the 3rd Battalion, in preparation for the need for replacement drafts as a result of campaigning by the 1st Battalion.

see also - http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/lincolnshire-regiment/

 

59 minutes ago, loujn said:

He remained in the UK, being posted to the 6th, 9th and then 3rd Lincolns until March 1916

 

In September the War Office allowed the creation of "War Service only", (shortened to "Service), Battalions, like the 6th. To stiffen the new recruits and provide examples of how to do things the Regular Army way small cadres of Regular Army men  - Officers, NCO's and Privates - would be drafted in to provide a core for these new units.

 

59 minutes ago, loujn said:

until March 1916 when he was sent to join the BEF in France with the 2nd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment.  

He received a gsw to his back on what looks like 1st July 1916 and was sent home, rejoining the 3rd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment.

 

Long, Long Trail on the link above has this for the 2nd Battalion.

 

2nd Battalion
August 1914 : in Bermuda and moved to Halifax, Nova Scotia.
Returned to England 3 October 1914 and on arrival came under command of 25th Brigade in 8th Division.
6 November 1914 : landed at le Havre.

 

Although it almost certainly won't mention him by name, the War Diary for the 2nd Battalion can be downloaded from the National Archive, (current cost £3.50) and will give a (often basic) picture of what the Battalion were up to. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352498

If you subscribe to Ancestry you can see them free there. If you don't subscribe and live in the UK then you will find it's very likely that your local Public Library has a subscription.

 

The official Regimental History written in the aftermath of the Great War, can be seen for free here https://archive.org/stream/TheHistoryOfTheLincolnshireRegiment1914-1918/TheHistoryOfTheLincolnshireRegiment-C.r.Simpson_djvu.txt

 

Once he was a long term term casualty he would have been moved off the books of the 2nd Battalion for pay and discipline purposes and moved on to the establishment of the home depot battalion, the 3rd. This doesn't mean he was with the 3rd - he may well have been in hospital and subsequently in convalescence. On being declared fit he would normally get a weeks leave and then report to the depot. Unless remedial training was required or the medical board advised otherwise its then very likely he would rapidly have been on his way back to the front. Seems in his case the medical board advised he wasn't fit for frontline service for the forseeable future.

 

59 minutes ago, loujn said:

12^th December 1916 – transferred to the 18^th Battalion Queens Royal West Surrey Regiment**

 

Long, Long Trail has

17th and 18th (Labour) Battalions
Formed at Crawley in November 1916.
June 1917 : transferred to Labour Corps and became Eastern Command Labour Centre.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/queens-royal-west-surrey-regiment/

 

59 minutes ago, loujn said:

5^th January 1917 – transferred to the 2^nd Infantry Labour Corps of the Queens Royal West Surrey Regiment

 Most likely 2nd Infantry Labour Company - titles seemed to have been in a state of flux at that time.

 

59 minutes ago, loujn said:

9th May 1917 – transferred to 110 Army Service Corps (ASC) Labour Corps

 

Again thats most likely 110 Company, Labour Corps, which was separate to the Army Service Corps. See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-labour-corps-of-1917-1918/labour-companies-of-the-labour-corps/

 

59 minutes ago, loujn said:

Would he have remained in the UK for the remainder of his service?

 

Likely - although Labour Corps units did serve in Theatres of War.

 

A name and service number may help dredge up more information.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

Edited 14 November , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[loujn]

Thank you both for your replies.  Great information thank you Peter.

 

27 minutes ago, PRC said:

The standard engagement in the Regular Army was 12 years - usually 7 in the colours, and 5 in the reserves. He couldn't sign up until he was 18 - before that he could be a boy soldier up to his 18th birthday. So unless he was dishonourably discharged, medically discharged or purchased his release, if he was 28 at the outbreak of the war then he was still in the Army, but as a reservist, liable to be recalled on the outbreak of hostilities. Like most reservists he took up a civilian occupation to support himself financially.

 

If he "attested" on the 28th August 1914 - i.e. signed a new enlistment form, then one of those routes to discharge must have applied. If, more likely, he was a mobilised reservist then if he didn't report until the 28th August 1914 he was committing a military offence and would have needed a very good excuse.

 

Very interesting and I have to say, I hadn't done my sums with regard to his age! his service record states that on 28th August 1914 he attested at Derby.  

AND..... i hadn't checked the front page of the service records properly! tut tut!! lol  His family said that they thought he had served prior to WW1.  I'll have to check why they thought that.

 

His name is John Goodall service number with Lincolnshire Regiment is 10583, with Labour Corps is 65594  

His service records are on Ancestry.

 

I had found the war diary for the Lincolnshire Regiment, shame its not on Ancestry, but i've given the grandson the link to the National Archives.  

 

I haven't found much at all for his time in the labour corps, other than the fact he was promoted through the ranks to eventually reach Corporal. 

 

I've spent time researching 85 men named on our local war memorial, but i've not done any research for the past year so i'm a bit shaky again on it all.... plus I never knew much about the labour corps anyway!  

thanks again 

Louise

 

[loujn]

This is what i had ascertained from his service records...........

 

  28^th August 1914 – Joined at Derby attested to the 6^th Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment

  29^th August 1914 – posted at the depot awaiting further orders

  11^th September 1914 – joined the 6^th Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment.  They were based at Belton Park, Grantham at this time until April 1915 when they moved on to Frensham.  In July 1915 they mobilised for Gallipoli, but John didn’t go with them.

  26^th October 1915 – joined the 9^th Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment, they were a reserve battalion and in April 1915 were stationed at Lichfield, moving later to Brocton Camp.

  17^th November 1915 – Joined the 3^rd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment which was a training battalion stationed at Grimsby.

  1^st March 1916 – joined the British Expeditionary Force in France, posted to the 2^nd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment *

  ?July 1916 – writing very feint but looks like John was wounded in action on 1^st July? this would be why he returned to blighty – GSW (gunshot wound) to back.

  11^th July 1916 – HOME at depot

  14^th October 1916 – back to the 3^rd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment (training regiment)

  12^th December 1916 – transferred to the 18^th Battalion Queens Royal West Surrey Regiment**

  5^th January 1917 – transferred to the 2^nd Infantry Labour Corps of the Queens Royal West Surrey Regiment

  9th May 1917 – transferred to 110 Army Service Corps (ASC) Labour Corps

  8^th April 1017 – promoted to unpaid Lance Corporal

  17^th July 1917 – promoted to paid Lance Corporal

  12^th September 1917 – promoted to paid Acting Corporal

  12^th September 1917 – paid as Corporal

  3^rd March 1919 demobilised to Para Z

[PRC]

1 hour ago, loujn said:

i hadn't checked the front page of the service records properly! tut tut!! lol  His family said that they thought he had served prior to WW1. 

 

I take it it doesn't mention previous Military service, (sorry don't have a paid Ancestry subscription and my access to FindMyPast is limited to when I'm in the Library

Bear in mind what the family says could still be correct - if he'd blotted his copybook and been chucked out of either the Regular Army or the Territorial Force he might not have been keen for the Army to have made the connection that this was the same man.

 

1 hour ago, loujn said:

I had found the war diary for the Lincolnshire Regiment, shame its not on Ancestry, but i've given the grandson the link to the National Archives.  

 

 As I say I don't have a paid subscription to Ancestry, only a free account that on the Military side gives me the Medal Index Cards and very little else. As a researcher on a very small budget I have to use the free weekends when they come up and go, shall we say, a little bit crazy!

 

To make maximum use of the time I have a cribsheet for how to use Ancestry to find various things which may be of help on this occasion.

 

Step 1: Start from the search screen for War Diaries for Belgium, France and Germany, (If you need Gallipoli it's in the sidebar on the same page).

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/ukwardiarieswwi/

Step 2 In "Browse the Collection" on the right hand side select from "Regiment or Unit" the regiment or corps, (Engineers, Medical), you are interested in - in your case Lincolnshire Regiment

Step 3. The box below that, "Division" now becomes active. If not sure use The Long, Long Trail to work out the appropriate Division for the period concerned.

Extract from the LLT is in my first reply - it's the 21st Division, so select that from the drop down box. Edit - having a mare, it's 8th Division not 21st  for the time he was with them - however step 5 onwards should still work.

Step 4. The "pieces" of War Diary available are then displayed - select and double click to open (Windows).

 

Screenshot attached of how the screen should look up to the double clicking - unfortunately as I don't subscribe I can't send you a weblink. If I double click I just get taken to the subscription screen.

 

Step 5 If the appropriate Division isn't in the drop down box or the piece turns out to be missing or incorrectly linked, go back to Step 2 but instead look for Brigades - in this case 25th Brigade. There is a standard spelling mistake all the way through this part of the drop-down, so you will find "Various (Infantry Bridages - 8th Division).

Step 6. "Division" then becomes active but the only choice is the same Division - i.e. 8th

Step7. The various pieces displayed will include the War Diaries of the 25th Brigade. As the Brigade War Diary included a copy of the War Diary of all the sub units that made it up, there should be an alternative copy of the Diary you are searching for there.

 

Humble apologies if that is "teaching granny to suck eggs" and I'm sure there are more elegant ways of doing the search, it's just what works for me.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 14 November , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[MaxD]

18 Battalion Queens was formed in Nov 1916, one of the many Infantry Labour Battalions that were the beginnings of the Labour Corps. They were destined to go overseas but in a change of plan at the beginning of 1917 they (and the 17th Battalion Queens) were reformed into 4 Infantry Labour Companies - he went to No 2 Company (not Corps).

 

He was transferred to 110 Labour Company Labour Corps in May 1917.  What you have read as ASC is ACI 611/17 the "founding " document for the Labour Corps.  He was in the BEF then from early 1917 until release.

 

(Source - No Labour No Battle)

 

Not clear whether he went overseas with No 2 Company and whether that company formed the basis of 110 labour Company, someone may know!"

 

Max

 

Edited 14 November , 2019 by MaxD

[FROGSMILE]

Louise, you’ve done a good job I think in digging up this rare survival of a service record, especially for someone with little previous experience of British Army organisation in WW1.  As usual PRC has done a great job in explaining where the clerks who compiled the records have made mistakes in nomenclature, i.e. infantry labour company rather then infantry labour corps.  If you would like to understand the Labour Corps better, an old colleague of mine, John Starling, jointly authored the definitive history, “No Labour, No Battle”, which you should be able to order via your local library.  It will help you to better understand the corps that largely swept up all men suitable for military service, but unfit for the infantry and other combatant arms. Many were men previously wounded, but unfit to return to their former units.

 

Afternote: I see that MaxD has beat me to it.

Edited 14 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[loujn]

4 minutes ago, MaxD said:

He was in the BEF then from early 1917 until release.

 

Hi Max, thank you for your reply  - and explanation.  I learn so much here!

 

So, do you think he went overseas with the labour company?

 

 

[loujn]

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

Humble apologies if that is "teaching granny to suck eggs" and I'm sure there are more elegant ways of doing the search, it's just what works for me.

 

Peter, no no, thank you  i appreciate everyones tips! 

i am ok when a war diary on Ancestry is easy to find - eg, put in regiment, then division, then bingo find my war diary.  But, anything else I cant do! so i'm rubbish via brigade level.  Your explanation is great...... i'm going to screen shot it and save it!

 

Unfortunately for the time period the soldier served with the 2nd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment, they were with the 8th Division and I cant see the diaries on Ancestry.  But ill go and have a look via the brigade route.

 

Thanks again

[MaxD]

His record (and No Labour No Battle) is not entirely clear on that.  My reading (which may be a bit out) is that No 2 Infantry Works Company Queens (as it was from Dec 1916/Jan 1917) referred to on page 39 of the source) went overseas in early 1917 and became 110 Labour Company while already in France.  Whatever, he was certainly in France when his unit was asked in October 1917 about his promotion dates.  Although the reply refers to him going overseas with the unit (110 Company) it must at that time been its forerunner as 110 didn't come into existence until April 1917.  He was appointed unpaid  L/Cpl on 8 April. 

 

Max

[PRC]

2 hours ago, loujn said:

 ?July 1916 – writing very feint but looks like John was wounded in action on 1^st July? this would be why he returned to blighty – GSW (gunshot wound) to back.

 

Is this from his "Casualty Form - Active Service". May be worthwhile posting here in case someone can enhance the image.

 

However I suspect you will find it is the 1st July 1916.

 

Ovillers

Here the 8th Division, including the 1st Bn, Royal Irish Rifles was tasked with a direct assault on the village itself. In this area No Man's Land was 400 yards wide. South of the village the attack was conducted by 23 Brigade, 70 of whom reached the German front line, but they were forced out of it by a counter-attack after 2 hours. The 70th Brigade north of the village, attacking up a sunken road called 'The Nab' managed to reach the German Front line, but were stopped 80 yards short of the German second line by a machine gun at the top of the valley. In the centre, 25 Brigade were slaughtered as they tried to cross No Man's Land; very few of the reached the German line, and they failed to hold onto it.
Of about 300 officers and 8000 men, the Division lost 189 officers and 4719 men dead or wounded.

Source: https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?9058-The-Somme-Day-by-Day

 

From that Lincolnshire Regimental History

 

(Page 162) The 8th Division, on the left of the 34th, was to attack with all three brigades in the front line, 23rd Brigade on the right, 25th Brigade in the centre and 70th Brigade on the left. The final objective allotted to the Division was a north and south line east of Pozieres, the attack of the three brigades in the first instance being directed against the German trenches from half-way between La Boisselle and Ovillers, to opposite the north-eastern corner of Authuille Wood. They also had three villages to capture, i.e., Ovillers, La Boisselle and Pozieres. The 2nd Lincolnshire were to attack on the left of the 25th Brigade front, having on their right the 2nd Royal Berkshires.

 

(Page 167 - 168) The 8th Division had all three brigades in the front line, 23rd on the right, 2,5th in the centre and 70th on the left. The centre lay opposite Ovillers and of the 25th Brigade the 2nd Royal Berkshire were ordered to attack on the right and the 2nd Lincolnshire (Lieut.-Colonel R. Bastard) on the left, with the 1st Royal Irish Rifles in support and the 2nd Rifle Brigade in reserve. The northern half of Ovillers and three or four lines of powerfully-defended trenches formed the first objective of the 25th Brigade.

 

The battalion was in position by 3.30 a.m., two companies in the front line between Cartmael and Longridge, one company in Pendlehill and Cartmael and Battalion Headquarters with the remaining company in Waltney. Two patrols, one under 2nd Lieutenant Eld and the other under Lieutenant Ross, reported that the enemy's wire was well cut : the former officer and several men were wounded. At 6.25 a.m., when the intense bombardment began, the enemy replied with high-explosive shrapnel on the front-line and as- sembly trenches. Five minutes before zero the assaulting com- panies advanced from their assembly positions preparatory to the attack, all three companies getting their first two waves into No Man's Land and the third and fourth waves out at zero. This operation was carried out quickly and without a hitch, though they were observed and casualties were fairly heavy.

 

The story of the gallant efforts made by the 2nd Lincolnshire to win through to their objective cannot be more fittingly told than in their own words : " As soon as the barrage lifted the whole assaulted. We were met with very severe rifle-fire and in most cases had to advance in rushes and return the fire. This fire seemed to come from the German second lines and the machine-gun fire from our left. On reaching the German front line we found it strongly held and were met with showers of bombs, but after a very hard fight about two hundred yards of German lines were taken about 7.50 a.m. Our support company by this time joined in. The few officers that were left gallantly led their men over the German trench to attack the second line, but owing to the rifle and machine-gun fire could not push on. Attempts were made to consolidate and make blocks, but the trench was so badly knocked about that very little cover was obtainable. " We were actually in the German trenches for two or three hours, and captured a lot more trench on our right by bombing as well as repulsing a German counter-attack from their second line. It was impossible to hang on longer owing to shortage of ammunition, and no more bombs, as we had used up all our own as well as all the German bombs we could find in the trenches and dug-outs, and were being gradually squeezed out by their bombing attacks. A company of the Royal Irish Rifles made a most gallant attempt to come to our support, but only ten or twelve men succeeded in getting through the zone of terrific machine-gun fire. We went into the attack with twenty-two officers, all of whom were killed or wounded, except Leslie and myself, and we had bullet holes through our clothing. " During the time I had the honour of commanding the 2nd Battalion I never saw the men fight better ; they were magnificent in the most trying and adverse conditions. The attack, though a failure, was a most glorious effort, and I was intensely proud of the battalion.

 

" We first retired to shell-holes in ' No Man's Land ' and kept up fire on the trench we had left with ammunition we collected from the wounded. As it was obvious we could do no good there, we retired to our own trench and reorganised to be ready for another attack if required. " Orders were received from the 25th Brigade to withdraw to Ribble and Melling Streets and occupy the assembly dug-outs, which was done." {Lieut. -Colonel Reginald Bastard, D.S.O.)

 

At 12 midnight the battalion was relieved and proceeded to Long Valley.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[loujn]

On 14/11/2019 at 17:35, FROGSMILE said:

Louise, you’ve done a good job I think in digging up this rare survival of a service record, especially for someone with little previous experience of British Army organisation in WW1.  As usual PRC has done a great job in explaining where the clerks who compiled the records have made mistakes in nomenclature, i.e. infantry labour company rather then infantry labour corps.  If you would like to understand the Labour Corps better, an old colleague of mine, John Starling, jointly authored the definitive history, “No Labour, No Battle”, which you should be able to order via your local library.  It will help you to better understand the corps that largely swept up all men suitable for military service, but unfit for the infantry and other combatant arms. Many were men previously wounded, but unfit to return to their former units.

 

Afternote: I see that MaxD has beat me to it.

 

Thank you, I will definitely get a copy of the book you mention.  My great granddad was also in a Labour Corps, but i've not really looked into his service so its something I must do! 

 

[loujn]

On 14/11/2019 at 19:14, PRC said:

 

Is this from his "Casualty Form - Active Service". May be worthwhile posting here in case someone can enhance the image.

 

However I suspect you will find it is the 1st July 1916.

 

Ovillers

Here the 8th Division, including the 1st Bn, Royal Irish Rifles was tasked with a direct assault on the village itself. In this area No Man's Land was 400 yards wide. South of the village the attack was conducted by 23 Brigade, 70 of whom reached the German front line, but they were forced out of it by a counter-attack after 2 hours. The 70th Brigade north of the village, attacking up a sunken road called 'The Nab' managed to reach the German Front line, but were stopped 80 yards short of the German second line by a machine gun at the top of the valley. In the centre, 25 Brigade were slaughtered as they tried to cross No Man's Land; very few of the reached the German line, and they failed to hold onto it.
Of about 300 officers and 8000 men, the Division lost 189 officers and 4719 men dead or wounded.

Source: https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?9058-The-Somme-Day-by-Day

 

From that Lincolnshire Regimental History

 

(Page 162) The 8th Division, on the left of the 34th, was to attack with all three brigades in the front line, 23rd Brigade on the right, 25th Brigade in the centre and 70th Brigade on the left. The final objective allotted to the Division was a north and south line east of Pozieres, the attack of the three brigades in the first instance being directed against the German trenches from half-way between La Boisselle and Ovillers, to opposite the north-eastern corner of Authuille Wood. They also had three villages to capture, i.e., Ovillers, La Boisselle and Pozieres. The 2nd Lincolnshire were to attack on the left of the 25th Brigade front, having on their right the 2nd Royal Berkshires.

 

(Page 167 - 168) The 8th Division had all three brigades in the front line, 23rd on the right, 2,5th in the centre and 70th on the left. The centre lay opposite Ovillers and of the 25th Brigade the 2nd Royal Berkshire were ordered to attack on the right and the 2nd Lincolnshire (Lieut.-Colonel R. Bastard) on the left, with the 1st Royal Irish Rifles in support and the 2nd Rifle Brigade in reserve. The northern half of Ovillers and three or four lines of powerfully-defended trenches formed the first objective of the 25th Brigade.

 

The battalion was in position by 3.30 a.m., two companies in the front line between Cartmael and Longridge, one company in Pendlehill and Cartmael and Battalion Headquarters with the remaining company in Waltney. Two patrols, one under 2nd Lieutenant Eld and the other under Lieutenant Ross, reported that the enemy's wire was well cut : the former officer and several men were wounded. At 6.25 a.m., when the intense bombardment began, the enemy replied with high-explosive shrapnel on the front-line and as- sembly trenches. Five minutes before zero the assaulting com- panies advanced from their assembly positions preparatory to the attack, all three companies getting their first two waves into No Man's Land and the third and fourth waves out at zero. This operation was carried out quickly and without a hitch, though they were observed and casualties were fairly heavy.

 

The story of the gallant efforts made by the 2nd Lincolnshire to win through to their objective cannot be more fittingly told than in their own words : " As soon as the barrage lifted the whole assaulted. We were met with very severe rifle-fire and in most cases had to advance in rushes and return the fire. This fire seemed to come from the German second lines and the machine-gun fire from our left. On reaching the German front line we found it strongly held and were met with showers of bombs, but after a very hard fight about two hundred yards of German lines were taken about 7.50 a.m. Our support company by this time joined in. The few officers that were left gallantly led their men over the German trench to attack the second line, but owing to the rifle and machine-gun fire could not push on. Attempts were made to consolidate and make blocks, but the trench was so badly knocked about that very little cover was obtainable. " We were actually in the German trenches for two or three hours, and captured a lot more trench on our right by bombing as well as repulsing a German counter-attack from their second line. It was impossible to hang on longer owing to shortage of ammunition, and no more bombs, as we had used up all our own as well as all the German bombs we could find in the trenches and dug-outs, and were being gradually squeezed out by their bombing attacks. A company of the Royal Irish Rifles made a most gallant attempt to come to our support, but only ten or twelve men succeeded in getting through the zone of terrific machine-gun fire. We went into the attack with twenty-two officers, all of whom were killed or wounded, except Leslie and myself, and we had bullet holes through our clothing. " During the time I had the honour of commanding the 2nd Battalion I never saw the men fight better ; they were magnificent in the most trying and adverse conditions. The attack, though a failure, was a most glorious effort, and I was intensely proud of the battalion.

 

" We first retired to shell-holes in ' No Man's Land ' and kept up fire on the trench we had left with ammunition we collected from the wounded. As it was obvious we could do no good there, we retired to our own trench and reorganised to be ready for another attack if required. " Orders were received from the 25th Brigade to withdraw to Ribble and Melling Streets and occupy the assembly dug-outs, which was done." {Lieut. -Colonel Reginald Bastard, D.S.O.)

 

At 12 midnight the battalion was relieved and proceeded to Long Valley.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Peter, this is fantastic stuff.  thank you so much for taking the time to help.  I have copied the information and will be suggesting the grandson of the soldier joins this forum so that he can ask any other questions he may have (plus he can read this thread about his grandfather).  Thanks again, Louise

[loujn]

On 14/11/2019 at 17:52, MaxD said:

His record (and No Labour No Battle) is not entirely clear on that.  My reading (which may be a bit out) is that No 2 Infantry Works Company Queens (as it was from Dec 1916/Jan 1917) referred to on page 39 of the source) went overseas in early 1917 and became 110 Labour Company while already in France.  Whatever, he was certainly in France when his unit was asked in October 1917 about his promotion dates.  Although the reply refers to him going overseas with the unit (110 Company) it must at that time been its forerunner as 110 didn't come into existence until April 1917.  He was appointed unpaid  L/Cpl on 8 April. 

 

Max

brilliant, thank you Max.  I had no idea from reading his service records, if he had gone overseas or not with the Labour Companies.  Thank you for your take input, most appreciated.  I will pass this information on to his grandson.  Cheers, Louise