First soldier to die during the war

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 07/01/2019 at 13:07, sassenach said:

I don't think you can say he was "killed in the war" because when he was killed there was no war. You might say he was the first casualty of the events that led to the war.

 

This point confused Baldrick badly.

[Bordercollie]

According to CWGC there were 134 Royal Navy personnel, 15 Royal Marines and an Admiralty Civilian who lost their lives on HMS Amphion. Most are remembered on the Plymouth Naval Memorial but a few are buried at St Mary's Church Shotley, Suffolk. There are two German Navy personnel buried at St Mary's Church Shotley, who also lost their lives on HMS Amphion. They were among the survivors from a German ship sunk by HMS Amphion. It was that ship which had earlier laid the mine which HMS Amphion struck.  

[AOK4]

8 hours ago, Marilyne said:

 

Indeed... and so it's only fitting to add to this list Staff Nurse Ethel FEARNLEY, Queen Alexandra's Imperial Nursing Service, the fist woman to have died in the War, on the 23rd November 1914. She is buried in Boulogne Cemetery.

 

M.

 

I'm terribly sorry, but you seem only to take into consideration British women? What about German and French nurses and Belgian civilians? Plenty of those died before 23rd November 1914...

[Gunner Bailey]

20 minutes ago, Bordercollie said:

According to CWGC there were 134 Royal Navy personnel, 15 Royal Marines and an Admiralty Civilian who lost their lives on HMS Amphion. Most are remembered on the Plymouth Naval Memorial but a few are buried at St Mary's Church Shotley, Suffolk. There are two German Navy personnel buried at St Mary's Church Shotley, who also lost their lives on HMS Amphion. They were among the survivors from a German ship sunk by HMS Amphion. It was that ship which had earlier laid the mine which HMS Amphion struck.  

 

 

Thanks for the update (on my post #22), especially regarding those buried in Shotley. I would have thought these were worthy of being called the first combat deaths of WW1. I had assumed they might have all been still in the Amphion, but clearly some either drifted ashore or were picked up at sea.

 

Looking at the church website it clearly has a large CWGC area in the cemetery.

Edited 9 January , 2019 by Gunner Bailey

[BullerTurner]

I am sure, like most brown or light blue jobs, the story of HMS Amphion was a late intruder in my perceptions of the Great War?  It is without doubt a fascinating story of cat and mouse, with HMS Amphion sinking and then being sunk post hoc by SMS Konigin Luise.

 

Wiki offers this story of the end..."

The fire from the destroyers was ineffective until Amphion closed to a range of 7,000 yards (6,400 m) and began hitting the German ship at about 11:15. By noon, Königin Luise was sinking and the three British ships rescued 5 officers and 70 ratings. The flotilla proceeded onwards with their patrol until they reached the Dutch coast around 21:00 and turned for home. Fox was uncertain as to the locations of the mines laid by Königin Luise and laid a course that was seven nautical miles (13 km; 8.1 mi) west of where he thought the mines were. He guessed wrongly and led his flotilla over the danger area. 

At 06:35, Amphion struck a mine that detonated underneath her bridge. The explosion set her forecastle on fire and broke the ship's keel. The destroyer Linnet attempted to tow the cruiser, but a deep crack across her upper deck showed that she was hogging badly and Fox ordered his crew to abandon ship. Shortly afterwards, her forward magazine exploded, throwing one 4-inch gun into the air that narrowly missed Linnet. One of Amphion's shells burst on the deck of the destroyer Lark, killing two of her men and the only German prisoner rescued from the cruiser. Amphion then rapidly sank within 15 minutes of the explosion losing 1 officer and 131 ratings killed in the sinking, plus an unknown number of the crew rescued from Königin Luise."

[Bordercollie]

Thanks for that further detail BullerTurner. I see your quote records 132 of the ship's company killed in the sinking. CWGC names 150 from HMS Amphion who died on 6th August 1914. As HMS Amphion struck the mine at 06:35 possibly 18 of the ship's company were rescued but died later that day. The quote also refers to the only German prisoner rescued from HMS Amphion being killed by an explosion on HMS Lark. That raises a question about the other German sailor who died on 6th August 1914 and is buried at St Mary's Shotley. If he wasn't from HMS Amphion how did he end up buried at Shotley? 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Anybody mentioned:

 

Edited 9 January , 2019 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Following on from this, if you interrogate the CWGC database with a date of death of 04/08/1914, it will return 4586 records!

These deaths are commemorated in:

Egypt 25

France 18

India 4232

Iran 28

Iraq 226

Tanzania 13

13 other countries (less than 10 each)  37

 

Total 4579

What is strange about these deaths is that the death is actually recorded as having occurred 'Between 04/08/1914 and 31/08/1921. The vast majority of these deaths are of Drivers, followers, labourers, Sepoys etc etc in the Indian Army. Very sad I think that all we know about these men, is that they died between those dates.

 

The same is true of this man:

 

Which leaves 6 men:

 

3 UK servicemen, 1 Indian Army & 2 German soldiers commemorated by CWGC  who died on the first day.

 

Edited 9 January , 2019 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Gunner Bailey]

Of the last three were any killed in action? That's the key. Appendicitis doesn't count. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, Gunner Bailey said:

Of the last three were any killed in action? That's the key. Appendicitis doesn't count. 

 

Well, Tom when he started the thread was asking who was the "First soldier to die during the war".

He didn't specify the first KIA.

[Gunner Bailey]

True Dai,  but for many years Parr has been held up as the first death by enemy action which clearly was not true. He may not even be the earliest grave (according to other posts) of the war.

[Bordercollie]

I suspect John Parr has become well known more because his grave is adjacent to that of George Ellison one of the last casualties of the war. The juxtaposition of the two graves was the primary point allowing the uncertainty surrounding the fate of John Parr to be glossed over. Deaths away from the Western Front were also irrelevant because the primary point being made was that after four years and over 400,000 deaths the BEF ended up precisely where it started.  

[Gunner Bailey]

36 minutes ago, Bordercollie said:

I suspect John Parr has become well known more because his grave is adjacent to that of George Ellison one of the last casualties of the war. The juxtaposition of the two graves was the primary point allowing the uncertainty surrounding the fate of John Parr to be glossed over. Deaths away from the Western Front were also irrelevant because the primary point being made was that after four years and over 400,000 deaths the BEF ended up precisely where it started.  

 

 

Apart from going from a full retreat to victory.

 

How many history books name Parr as the first death? History is about facts and quite simply Parr is a half truth.

Edited 10 January , 2019 by Gunner Bailey

[Marilyne]

19 hours ago, AOK4 said:

 

I'm terribly sorry, but you seem only to take into consideration British women? What about German and French nurses and Belgian civilians? Plenty of those died before 23rd November 1914...

 

you're right... I took my little list of British nurses, VAD's, workers etc that died during the war because that's who I'm currently researching for my project. I'll have to dig a bit deeper to find French, german and Belgian women involved in the war effort (insisting) but I'll keep you all posted...

 

M.

[Chris_Baker]

Going back to the original question, surely it would be either an Austrian or Serbian soldier? They were in action days before the rest.

[BullerTurner]

18 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

Thanks for that further detail BullerTurner. I see your quote records 132 of the ship's company killed in the sinking. CWGC names 150 from HMS Amphion who died on 6th August 1914. As HMS Amphion struck the mine at 06:35 possibly 18 of the ship's company were rescued but died later that day. The quote also refers to the only German prisoner rescued from HMS Amphion being killed by an explosion on HMS Lark. That raises a question about the other German sailor who died on 6th August 1914 and is buried at St Mary's Shotley. If he wasn't from HMS Amphion how did he end up buried at Shotley? 

Amphion was in company with other ships.  Perhaps German casualties were collected by one of the destroyers?  Also it is possible that not all casualties received a shore burial?  I don't know, odd beasts are sailors!

[sassenach]

2 hours ago, Chris_Baker said:

Going back to the original question, surely it would be either an Austrian or Serbian soldier? They were in action days before the rest.

See Post 4

[Chris_Baker]

Well, exactly. But then we drift off into a British perspective, as ever.