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Antonia

Ship from UK captured by Germans en route to South America in 1914 - name/details please?

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DavidOwen
2 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

I'm sure you've noticed that in the 1911 Census, Ivy is described as a "laundry worker" and Daisy as a "laundry proprietress (?) employee".

 

As a Laundry Worker would Ivy have been able to afford passage to Argentina?

Might they both have worked their passage?

This would fit with being POW - BUT it also makes it imperative for someone, anyone, who can get to Kew to look at the Crew Lists listed here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2617306 as they may be listed as crew rather than passengers? (The lists may include passengers too, the Germans may not have differentiated).

I have tried using the NA's Advanced Search to pick up crew lists but for some reason it only seems to want to find 1915 references to the ships listed in my post #18 above.....

Edited by DavidOwen
missing )

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MerchantOldSalt
4 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

 

As a Laundry Worker would Ivy have been able to afford passage to Argentina?

Might they both have worked their passage?

This would fit with being POW - BUT it also makes it imperative for someone, anyone, who can get to Kew to look at the Crew Lists listed here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2617306 as they may be listed as crew rather than passengers? (The lists may include passengers too, the Germans may not have differentiated.

I have tried using the NA's Advanced Search to pick up crew lists but for some reason it only seems to want to find 1915 references to the ships listed in my post #18 above.....

David

The answer to that is yes they could afford the fare on ships akin to those of the Nelson Line, they were cargo/passenger ships carrying about 30 pax in what was called intermediate class.  It just so happens that both the Highland Hope and Highland Brae belonging to that Company were intercepted and sunk by the two raiders already mentioned.  But the Brae's pax list is available on Ancestry and Ivy is not on her.  The Hope's pax list is not, she was on passage to BA in ballast but that does not mean she was not carrying passengers.  If you look at past pax lists for the Nelson Line ships you will find people of very humble origins and employment travelling on them.

The Hope was a victim of the KARLSRUHE and the "POWs" taken by her were kept onboard two accompanying ships the CREFELD and RIO NEGRO, it seems all were eventually transferred to the CREFELD and eventually landed in Tenerife this according to a well kept diary of Captain J Bethke of the CORNISH CITY so it doesn't look like Ivy was on the Hope either which is one reason I haven't mentioned this before.  But it could be another line of enquiry so added for what it is worth.

 

Tony

Highland Brae.jpg

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DavidOwen

Cheers Tony, 

Very useful information!

I have updated my list from post #18 to eliminate those sailing in the wrong direction:

Bowes Castle captured and scuttled 18/8/14 eliminated sailing Montevideo for New York

Strathroy - scuttled 31/8/14 possible sailing Norfolk to Rio

Maple Branch - scuttled 3/9/14 possible Liverpool to Puento Arenas - but largely Chinese crew

Highland Hope - scuttled 14/9/14 possible - Liverpool to Buenos Aires in ballast

Indrani - - scuttled 17/9/14 possible - Norfolk for Rio carrying coal

Cornish City - scuttled 21/9/14 possible - Barry to Rio carrying coal

Rio Iguassu - scuttled 22/9/14 possible - Newcastle for Rio carrying coal

Niceto de Larrinaga - scuttled 6/10/(17)* 1914 eliminated - Buenos Aires for London

Lynrowan - scuttled 7/10/(17)* 1914 eliminated Buenos Aires for Liverpool

Cervantes - scuttled 8/10/(17)* 1914 eliminated Rio for Liverpool

Pruth - scuttled 9/10/(17)* 1914 eliminated Mejillones for St Vincent

Condor - scuttled 11/10/(17)* 1914 possible - New York for Valparaiso (may have made for New York first?)

Glanton - scuttled 18/10/(17)* 1914 (record specifically mentions crew taken POW) possible Barry for Montevideo

Hurstdale - scuttled 23/10/(17)* 1914 - a "refrigerated cargo liner" again crew taken POW eliminated - Rosario for Bristol

Vandyck - sunk 26/10/(17)* 1914 confused records also have this vessel as scuttled on 2/11/14 and crew taken POW  eliminated Buenos Aires for New York (But only vessel so far recorded as having passengers - women and children)

 

Still think a look at those crew lists at TNA are worth a shot.

 

David

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DavidOwen

Checked all vessels for passenger lists as above post on FMP - nothing found, although some vessels have no passenger lists shown.

 

Another Karlsruhe victim found:

Farn - sailing Cardiff for Montevideo caputred 5/10/14 (no passenger list on FMP)

 

Nothing found on FMP Passenger lists for January - March 1915 inclusive.

 

Still looking.....

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tbirduk
19 hours ago, charlie2 said:

Apologies, I had forgotten that in 1921 the IWGC decided to accept 'Members of the Mercantile Marine' who died through Enemy Action, and  YMCA and Red Cross who had been 'employed with the armed forces' as being 'members of the Naval and Military Forces of the Crown' and built the Tower Hill monument in 1928

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Antonia
17 hours ago, seaJane said:

Oddly enough there is still a firm called Catley, dealing in industrial hardware, in Argentina today ... ??

https://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/catley-san-justo

http://www.catley.com.ar/

 

seaJane, you were right! The gentleman told me today that Ivy's sister stayed in Argentina and married an Argentinian, so that probably is the same family!!

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Antonia
7 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

I'm sure you've noticed that in the 1911 Census, Ivy is described as a "laundry worker" and Daisy as a "laundry proprietress (?) employee".  The ESSEQUIBO's passenger list with Ivy homeward bound has her listed underneath the family of Alfred Herbert Hale "Laundry Manager", now that has got to be more than a coincidence?  Of what use that is I know not at present, but interesting.

In 1911 the Hale's lived in Acton Vale and Ivy in Peckham so unlikely they knew each other then.  I cannot, as yet, find the Hales in any outward bound passenger list, was hoping maybe they travelled together out as well as home, and what happened to sister Daisy Alice, did she stay in Argentina? Also where does the name Constance come from as the 1911 Census makes no mention of that name?

Tony

Hi Tony, I spoke to the gentleman again today, and he said initially he thought Ivy's sister's name was Constance, but yes, it was actually Daisy. Daisy did marry an Argentinian and remained in the country, whilst Ivy came back to England. I don't know about the Hale family - yet! Thank you for looking into this, it is much appreciated!

1 hour ago, DavidOwen said:

Checked all vessels for passenger lists as above post on FMP - nothing found, although some vessels have no passenger lists shown.

 

Another Karlsruhe victim found:

Farn - sailing Cardiff for Montevideo caputred 5/10/14 (no passenger list on FMP)

 

Nothing found on FMP Passenger lists for January - March 1915 inclusive.

 

Still looking.....

Thank you, David! :)

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Antonia
4 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

David

The answer to that is yes they could afford the fare on ships akin to those of the Nelson Line, they were cargo/passenger ships carrying about 30 pax in what was called intermediate class.  It just so happens that both the Highland Hope and Highland Brae belonging to that Company were intercepted and sunk by the two raiders already mentioned.  But the Brae's pax list is available on Ancestry and Ivy is not on her.  The Hope's pax list is not, she was on passage to BA in ballast but that does not mean she was not carrying passengers.  If you look at past pax lists for the Nelson Line ships you will find people of very humble origins and employment travelling on them.

The Hope was a victim of the KARLSRUHE and the "POWs" taken by her were kept onboard two accompanying ships the CREFELD and RIO NEGRO, it seems all were eventually transferred to the CREFELD and eventually landed in Tenerife this according to a well kept diary of Captain J Bethke of the CORNISH CITY so it doesn't look like Ivy was on the Hope either which is one reason I haven't mentioned this before.  But it could be another line of enquiry so added for what it is worth.

 

Tony

Highland Brae.jpg

 

Thank you so much for going to all this trouble, David and Tony! Ivy definitely ended up in Argentina. I asked the gentleman if she was a POW just for the duration of the time it took the Germans to get them to port, or whether they were imprisoned once they reached land. He didn't know. But for Ivy to have been able to return to England the following year, and for her sister Daisy to have met and married an Argentinian man, it seems unlikely to me that they were imprisoned after leaving the ship.

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seaJane
13 minutes ago, Antonia said:

seaJane, you were right! The gentleman told me today that Ivy's sister stayed in Argentina and married an Argentinian, so that probably is the same family!!

Wow!

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Antonia

:D

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johnboy

On the passenger list ivy is not shown with an occupation but appears to have an address in Leytonstone.

 

The next question is. when the 2 sisters left UK was it the intention that one would stay and one would return?

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Antonia
4 hours ago, johnboy said:

On the passenger list ivy is not shown with an occupation but appears to have an address in Leytonstone.

 

The next question is. when the 2 sisters left UK was it the intention that one would stay and one would return?

I don't think there's any way to be sure. However, I I haven't found a marriage in England for Daisy, so it seems she met someone whilst she was in Argentina. So my guess is it wasn't planned. But I'll have to delve around Ancestry a bit more to firm up that suspicion!

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seaJane

Antonia,

 

If you can send me a private message (click on my name and then on message envelope tab) with your e-mail I will put you in touch with my FCO archives contact who is willing to search but needs a bit more information.

 

sJ

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Antonia
4 hours ago, seaJane said:

Antonia,

 

If you can send me a private message (click on my name and then on message envelope tab) with your e-mail I will put you in touch with my FCO archives contact who is willing to search but needs a bit more information.

 

sJ

Done! Thanks, seaJane! :)

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