Isaac Stuart Garland : MM; Royal Field Artillery 4739

[Tyddewi]

I am trying to find out more about my grandfather in World War 1. 

His name was Isaac Steward Garland, born July 1893 in Pontypool Monmouthshire. He lived in Pontypool throughout his life and died in August 1967. He was always known as Stewart/Stuart. 

 

He had a missing finger; what I remember him telling me (about 60 years ago), was that he had been injured in Gallipoli and was treated in hospital in Cairo. 

He told me he had a 14-15 star medal and two oak leaves. He received the Military Medal in 1917; I understood that was because he saved an officer’s life in France, but I have no other details. The officer received the MC. 

 

From entries on Ancestry, I gather my grandfather was in the Royal Field Artillery with number 4739.

 

The 14-15 medal card says  RFA 1/AB  584 and  RFA 111B/  2170

THEATRE OF WAR: 131 EGYPT QUALIFYING DATE  8/7/15

 

The MM card in 1917 says 505 battery.  

His pension details say he was demobilised in March 1919 from unit B/4 Res batt. 

 

I would appreciate help with finding more details about when he signed up, where he served etc as I am new to these military records and find it all very confusing.

Thanks

 

[charlie962]

Welcome to the Forum Tyddewi

 

You have been lucky to find a surviving service record for this man as most were destroyed WW2.

 

To help you interpret soldiers records and understand the units men served with then the Long Long Trail is a very good starting point. See top left of any page of the GWF and you will find a link.

For example on Soldiers there is this

 

A couple of points to help on the detail:

               

 

This bit from his service record explains where he served. He was wounded 4/8/17 whilst with 505 Battery (which was part of 65th Brigade Royal Field Artillery). He may well have been awarded the MM for the same action but more research is required.

 

I note that he is a Signaller (his Service sheet is also marked HQ Signaller). Such men often had to go out under heavy shell fire to repair broken telephone lines between the Gun positions and the battery HQ or perhaps with the forward observation post. Many won MMs for this very dangerous work.

 

You said he had been wounded at Gallipoli. That would explain why he only spent a month there -with the 56 brigade RFA. I don't think he was wounded ( but do correct me) ? His service record says he was admitted to hospital with Dysentery 27/9/15 and then a couple of weeks later evacuated to Malta and home.

 

Charlie

 

 

Edited 19 July , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Do you have his exact date of birth ? Perhaps 17/9/1893 per Railway Records ? There is a surviving 'retained' service record held by the Ministry of Defence for an I S Garland born 7/7/1893. Did your GF have some post-war service?

Edited 19 July , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

This from the LongLongTrail gives movements for the relative period of 56 Bde RFA

               

 

YourGF's card showed Egypt 8/7/15 so it would seem he sailed with the Brigade from Devonport.

 

 

I think you have Ancestry ? You will find the War Diary for 56 Brigade RFA here

Edited 19 July , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

For your GFs period of service in France 1917, he was 505 Battery, a part of 65 Army Field Artillery Brigade. The problem with Army Field Artillery Brigades is that they regularly changed the Division they were supporting so become a bit more difficult to trace. But for GBP 3.50 you can download the War Diary here at the National Archives. There should be a description of the Brigade action in August 1917 at the time your GF was wounded. There may be a mention of awards but War Diaries rarely actually name the Other Ranks.

[Tyddewi]

Thank you so much Charlie.

 

I have found the War diaries on Ancestry and the National Archives and downloaded them and will read hem in the next few days.

I am a bit confused by what you say as "You have been lucky to find a surviving service record for this man as most were destroyed WW2" as I am not sure where to find that service record.  It doesn't come up for me when I do an Ancestry search; you have obviously found it however so so could you give me the relevant hyperlink or point me in the right direction.

 

This has all been so interesting - so thank you very much again.

[ss002d6252]

9 minutes ago, Tyddewi said:

Thank you so much Charlie.

 

I have found the War diaries on Ancestry and the National Archives and downloaded them and will read hem in the next few days.

I am a bit confused by what you say as "You have been lucky to find a surviving service record for this man as most were destroyed WW2" as I am not sure where to find that service record.  It doesn't come up for me when I do an Ancestry search; you have obviously found it however so so could you give me the relevant hyperlink or point me in the right direction.

 

This has all been so interesting - so thank you very much again.

The last image you added to your first post is his remaining service record. From that image on Ancestry you can navigate through whatever is left of his service record.

Craig

[RaySearching]

 

Here is the link to his London Gazette MM entry

 

LONDON GAZETTE, 17 SEPTEMBER, 1917. 9607

 

Ray

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, Tyddewi said:

so could you give me the relevant hyperlink or point me in the right direction.

1. You have found his Discharge/Pension papers which have some of his normal Service file documents as well as the very illuminating medical reports used exclusively for assessing his right to a pension. Ancestry here.

 

2. His normal service file may have been destroyed by WW2 bombing or may have suurvived if he had post-war service because the MoD retained (and still retain) a large number of such files. Hence my questions in Post 3 - which you haven't yet commented on. More information on MoD held files and how to apply for a copy is here.

Look at the LongLongTrail or even search this forum for more info on MoD held files.

 

    Ancestry have this index but not the files. This is Ancestry's listing for IS Garland who may or may not be your GF. Don't get misled by Ancestry's note 'RAF'- it may or may not be relevant.

      

ANCESTRY :  About UK, Military Discharge Indexes, 1920-1971

Within These Records

These lists comprise the names and service numbers of those who were discharged from the armed forces after 1920, and born before 1901. Details given for over 300,000 individuals found within this collection may include (where available):

• Initial and Surname
• Date of Birth
• Their Service
• Service Number
• Ministry of Defence Reference Number

 

Hope that helps

Charlie

 

 

Edited 21 July , 2018 by charlie962

[Tyddewi]

All very helpful - once again many thanks.

I had found the pension record on Find my Past - but had only downloaded the front cover as that was all there seemed to be there.

Hence my confusion about the rest of the details you quoted but I have now found them through the Ancestry link.

 

My grandfather's dob was 7th July 1893. 

I have only recently realised that he had some employment on the GWR - he never talked of that but it makes sense as his father (my greatgrandfather Garland) was a mainline engine driver with the Great Western Railway and there were lots of other railway employees in the family. After the First world war, my grandfather  worked as a self employed Cabinet maker and French polisher.  He also subsequently had the MBE - I believe mainly for part-time work he did as a woodwork teacher at HM Prison and Borstal in Usk.

[charlie962]

8 minutes ago, Tyddewi said:

My grandfather's dob was 7th July 1893

In which case that must be your GF's record held by MoD even though he was Discharged 1919  ? If you provide as much info as possible to MoD they should be able to verify its his file before taking your 30 pounds.

[Tyddewi]

I have just joined this forum - I would like to find out more about my grandfather Stuart Garland, mainly how he was injured, and was awarded the Military Medal in September 1917.  I have looked at various aspects of his service records but they dont make clear quite what happened.  Also what did the role of HQ signaller comprise?

This is what I know:

 

 

[Michelle Young]

Duplicate threads (original from 2018) merged

[Matlock1418]

On 19/07/2018 at 10:08, Tyddewi said:

He had a missing finger

On 19/07/2018 at 10:08, Tyddewi said:

His pension details say he was demobilised in March 1919

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

A pension index card at WFA/Fold3 shows he was awarded a pension of 6/- pw from 15-3-19 to further notice

Under the prevailing 1918 Royal Warrant this equated to a 20% disability for a Corporal / pension Class IV soldier [the guide suggest that 20% was for "Loss of two fingures of either hand" so as you have reported he only lost one finger then it rather suggests they were adding for his other wounds.

If his condition had not improved then from 3 Sep 1919 the 1919 RW would have applied and his pension risen to 8/8 pw, potentially until 1946 when the next routine pension change took place [provided the MoP had not previously elected to determine his degree of disability had fallen and thus opted to give him a one-off gratuity in lieu of a pension - I think about a year's worth of pension]

His surviving papers may better offer some light on my interpretation above [I cannot access them - I always appreciate a reality-check if there is such info]

M

[Matlock1418]

On 19/07/2018 at 10:08, Tyddewi said:

He received the Military Medal in 1917

A quick nod to our member @Ivor Anderson as he often has more info on MM [Williamson & Bate I think can often help - now that's really stretching my knowledge on the subject of MM!]

M

[Matlock1418]

On 19/07/2018 at 10:08, Tyddewi said:

two oak leaves

Those I think would rather suggest a Mention(s) in Despatches [MiD] but I've not noted in the London Gazette [yet?] - anyone else found anything?

M

[Ivor Anderson]

18 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

more info on MM [Williamson & Bate I think can often help

 They place that LG as being awards for July 1917. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30287/supplement/9607

His MM index card shows us that he was with 505th Battery RFA in France at the time.

"He received the Military Medal in 1917; I understood that was because he saved an officer’s life in France, but I have no other details. The officer received the MC."

If we knew who the officer was there would be a MC citation?

Edited 17 February by Ivor Anderson

[battiscombe]

I note that Captain J W V Turner of 505th Bty was awarded an MC 8/9/1917 according to their war diary.. I dont see any records of July awards  [5 men were awarded MMs 29th June] .. a Lt (a/Major) R J Campbell MC was also in 505th Bty.. became a/Major on 6th August 1917, Turner was his battery captain..

 

[Ivor Anderson]

2 hours ago, battiscombe said:

Captain J W V Turner of 505th Bty was awarded an MC 8/9/1917 according to their war diary.

I can only find a MC to a James William Cecil Turner (not J W V)? in LG Sept 1917, citation in LG January 1918 - interesting:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/13192/page/308 

However, The annotated gazette says his MC was for Zillebeke on 18 August 1917.

Edited 16 February by Ivor Anderson

[battiscombe]

that is indeed the correct Lt Turner - JVC -  the event described would certainly 'fit' even if dates do not match ... There was an MM presentation to a Gunner H C Knight 146658 of 505th Bty [with  4 others ] by II Corps commander on 25th Aug.

slightly puzzling where 65 Army Bde war diary records 18 August simply as 'personnel of 465, 504 & 505 Batteries return to wagon lines' after 2 days of 'nothing of interest to record'. apparently at gun positions .. under command of 18th Division RA since 4/8/1917  - although have not been able to track that in other diaries. 65th Bde diary gives no indication of where they were..

Edited 17 February by battiscombe
typo

[Ivor Anderson]

35 minutes ago, battiscombe said:

There was an MM presentation to a Gunner H C Knight 146658 of 505th Bty [with  4 others ] by II Corps commander on 25th Aug.

I think that is Horace G. Knight 146655 (war diary entries are often incorrect). MM in LG 28 Sept 1917: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30312/supplement/10029

Edited 17 February by Ivor Anderson

[Tyddewi]

Thank you everyone for this information - extremely helpful information -  it seems to fit with the story my mother told me many years ago.   His finger was amputated on 8th Aug; the dates in the medical records  are ambiguous but appear to suggest the injury occurred on 4th Aug but its not completely clear.

From the medical documents available, it seems he accepted a one-off gratuity of £112-10-0d on 24/11/19.

The Brigade War diary notes that 2nd Lt Turner was promoted to Act/Captain on 6th August.

I don't have his war medals - one of my cousins has those - although I do have have his MBE medal which he got in 1967.  

[Tyddewi]

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Tyddewi said:

1 hour ago, Tyddewi said:

Thank you for posting these to aid my 'Reality Check' = Confirms a Provisonal/initial 20% disability due to loss of a finger plus loss of grip [does rather seem like a combination of 10% plus 10%!] under the 1918 RW as I had identified

The No Bonus, DMS and D of M are a puzzle for me

Rather hoping the likes of @ss002d6252 can please help explain.

And he ended with a Final Gratuity due to SMI in lieu for former award [Specified Minor Injury - there was a list of such SMI e.g. loss of finger] - that doesn't seem that surprising

Gratuity   £75.0.0

Service     £30.0.0

Rank        £7.10.0

            £112.10.0

Rather hoping the likes of @ss002d6252 can please help explain further detail about these three itemised elements, especially the Service and Rank elements.

M