The Man Who Shot Siegfried Sassoon

[charlie962]

3 hours ago, Skipman said:

We're all trying to bury Great War myths and here's another one being created in front of our eyes. It'll be a film next and then it's fact.

Frighteningly true.

 

 

[Perth Digger]

I may be able go one better. A much better, and certainly more profitable, "history" of Sassoon's friendly fire incident would base the story on a statement made by Robert Nicholls, the poet, who 'claimed later that it had been a plot by the High Command to kill this inconvenient rebel' (Max Egremont, Siegfried Sassoon: A Biography [2005], p.203]. Now that sounds like good solid evidence on which to base a non-fiction book. Nicholls had been in the army too, although he had been invalided out after a few weeks suffering from a nervous breakdown and syphilis. Trust the High Command to choose an assassin who couldn't shoot straight.

 

Mike

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Perth Digger said:

I may be able go one better. A much better, and certainly more profitable, "history" of Sassoon's friendly fire incident would base the story on a statement made by Robert Nicholls, the poet, who 'claimed later that it had been a plot by the High Command to kill this inconvenient rebel' (Max Egremont, Siegfried Sassoon: A Biography [2005], p.203]. Now that sounds like good solid evidence on which to base a non-fiction book. Nicholls had been in the army too, although he had been invalided out after a few weeks suffering from a nervous breakdown and syphilis. Trust the High Command to choose an assassin who couldn't shoot straight.

 

Mike

 

     Blimey-    shot at by his own disgruntled men, shot  at by the High Command-  Looks like the Germans were the very least of  Sassoon's worries.

         Does Max Egremont- usually a reliable author- say when Nicholls made this statement. ?     Is it more "Twilight Years Bravado".........

[michaeldr]

 

from p.203 of Max Egremont's "Siegfried Sassoon; A Life" [USA publisher Farrar, Straus & Giroux, New York, 2005]

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

 

from p.203 of Max Egremont's "Siegfried Sassoon; A Life" [USA publisher Farrar, Straus & Giroux, New York, 2005]

 

 

      Most interesting as to what happened to Sassoon. As to Nicholls and his version, there is only one word that is of use:

 

[michaeldr]

And alas, no reference for the Nichols' claim

[hazelclark]

I can’t understand where all this is coming from.  Surely the author, Mr Holland,would have checked official records.   If, in fact, a Batman who looked after Sassoon was indeed shot at dawn for the reasons suggested, it MUST be documented somewhere.  Surely that would be the beginning and the end of at least that story?

 

Seems that Sassoon has attracted an awful lot of conspiracy theories.

 

H.C.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, hazelclark said:

I can’t understand where all this is coming from.  Surely the author, Mr Holland,would have checked official records.   If, in fact, a Batman who looked after Sassoon was indeed shot at dawn for the reasons suggested, it MUST be documented somewhere.  Surely that would be the beginning and the end of at least that story?

 

Seems that Sassoon has attracted an awful lot of conspiracy theories.

 

H.C.

 

   Give us a name and we will start looking. 

[hazelclark]

Give us a name and we will start looking. 

Sorry, I meant to say that I assumed that the author knew the real names of those involved in that the info. came via a friend.  I thought he had changed the names for the sake of the families concerned.

H.C.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, hazelclark said:

Sorry, I meant to say that I assumed that the author knew the real names of those involved in that the info. came via a friend.  I thought he had changed the names for the sake of the families concerned.

H.C.

 

   Sassoon served with RWF- the Shot at Dawn listing appears to have nobody from that regiment listed???????

[hazelclark]

Sassoon served with RWF- the Shot at Dawn listing appears to have nobody from that regiment listed???????

So isn’t that the end of it???

 

Does seem weird for Hollands to have done this although if it is being marketed as a novel I guess he has some license.

H.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, hazelclark said:

So isn’t that the end of it???

H.

 

    Not quite-   IF- big word- there was a man SAD who was Sassoon's batman, then he may have come from another unit or been transferred  in or out from RWF. 

[hazelclark]

Not quite-   IF- big word- there was a man SAD who was Sassoon's batman, then he may have come from another unit or been transferred  in or out from RWF. 

Maybe so, but it should still be documented somewhere, and I would have expected the author to have researched all aspects before putting  pen to paper.  As I said, it looks like he was unable to find documentation and has therefore written a “novel”.  It is most unfortunate though that he has chosen Sassoon as his protagonist.

H.C.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, hazelclark said:

I would have expected the author to have researched all aspects before putting  pen to paper.

 

    You jest!!!!!!  

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

IF- big word- there was a man SAD who was Sassoon's batman, then he may have come from another unit or been transferred  in or out from RWF. 

 

By my reckoning, there were only around 20 executions for all reasons, from July 13th to Nov 11th 1918, of men in British Army regiments.

None of the names, regiments or circumstances seem to fit this case, none seem to be for such spurious reasons such as pinning a note to a notice board.

So either it didn't happen, or else 'they' covered it up.

[hazelclark]

You jest!!!!!!  

Why not?   That guy should know the drill by now.  He has written enough books. Even I am forever being asked for “evidence” if I am daft enough to raise my head above the parapet and I am not writing books.

 

Totally agree Dai.  Didn’t happen.

H.C.

 

 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, hazelclark said:

Why not?   That guy should know the drill by now.  He has written enough books. Even I am forever being asked for “evidence” if I am daft enough to raise my head above the parapet and I am not writing books.

 

Totally agree Dai.  Didn’t happen.

H.C.

 

 

 

   Actually, I am with you both- but a recurring problem is where  unsourced or evidentially weak material is slipped into othewise perfectly respectable books.. And the Mejjah go for the dodgy stuff-every time.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

I think it quite disgraceful, not to mention completely unfair to the name of an MC recipient - and having been done in the era of Fake News doesn't make it any better!

Siegfried Sassoon was by any yardstick of the day, a capable and gallant Officer. Need one say more?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[hazelclark]

Actually, I am with you both- but a recurring problem is where  unsourced or evidentially weak material is slipped into othewise perfectly respectable books.. And the Mejjah go for the dodgy stuff-every time. Seems a bit sketchy to me to use the correct names of some people in the book but not others.

H.C.

[Perth Digger]

As IPT said earlier, Sassoon's servant was John Law. Sassoon was with the 25th RWF when he was wounded.

 

My post on Nicholls was a case of the use of sarcasm, something perhaps Sassoon may have appreciated.

 

Mike

[Stoppage Drill]

"George Sherston" (Sassoon) is quite explicit about his wounding. After his bombing escapade he was returning to British lines, and in a moment of rest he removed his tin hat and stood up. He was immediately shot in the head. He retained consciousness and was helped to the Bn RAP where he was confronted by (amongst others) the man who had shot him. In "Sherston's Progress" this man is named as Sgt Wickham, though Sassoon had probably changed the name. "Wickham" is described as being distraught at his mistake, having assumed that the sound of bombs and the sight of a standing man heralded a German raid.

[Skipman]

The 231st Infantry Brigade diary has the date of wounding as the 12th July, 1918

 

"Captain Sassoon was wounded in the head also 2 other ranks."

 

Mike

[michaeldr]

Having quickly reread the passages in Egremont's biography of Sassoon, I am open to correction here re the time line,

but I am supposing that the Davy Jones/servant character must have been with Sassoon in the 2RWF.

[His servant for the first spell on the WF was Molyneaux (a Lancastrian) and as has already been pointed out, the man filling this job in the 25thRWF was named Law]

 

Before his wound and the spell in Blighty leading up to the 'declaration' Sassoon was with the

2^nd RWF in their B Company (Comp. Commander Kirby). On the 15^th April 1917 they went into the front line and on 16^th Sassoon was ordered to take bombers to support the Cameronians. Sassoon sets off after dark and at 0300 on the 17^th the Cameronian attack began. Sassoon's bombing party was called into action at 0600, and by 0945 he had been wounded.

 

Sassoon had been with the 2RWF for only 36 days. A very short period of time to make such a deep impression on any Jones, let alone to leave a lot of unsigned poetic fragments about. Egremont's biography supplies the names of Molyneaux and Law, but the real name of the servant in the 2RWF seems to have escaped him.

Edited 16 July , 2018 by michaeldr

[TEW]

Just listened to the interview again on Iplayer radio. Logging in is required. Interview with Hollands starts about 1h. 19mins in and runs for 10mins.

 

He says it's an Historical novel based on fact, where there are gaps in the facts he has filled them with fiction. But the events surrounding the shooting of Sassoon are based on fact as are the facts regarding who shot him and why.

 

So, now I'm confused. Disparity between what is in the Daily Express site and what Hollands says in the interview;

• The Mute man Hollands met in 1960 is the man who shot Sassoon.
• Sasson had a runner and a batman who were twin brothers.
• The Batman #617 (Davey Jones, not real name)
• The Runner #618 (Rhys Jones, not real name). Autistic Savant

 

While Sasson was in the UK recovering 1917? #618 while in France posted pacifist material on a noticeboard as asked to do so by Sassoon. This was in #618's handwriting.

 

#618 was then Court Martialled (outcome not given by Hollands) which made #617 swear to get revenge on Sassoon so shot Sassoon July 1918.

 

But, according to the Daily Express #617 was the Autistic Savant Batman who posted pacifist material and was SAD.

 

So, I'm lost as to 'The Mute man Hollands met in 1960' was 617 or 618.

 

No MICs or Rolls to LAW 617 or 618. But I wonder if these are early attestation numbers which neither served in a Theatre with.

 

TEW

 

 

[Steven Broomfield]

Is it possible that The Express and this Hollands chap are not letting the facts get in the way of a good story?