Imperial Camel Corps soldier POW

[charlie962]

Just now, PHalsall said:

Do you think he (and fellow PoWs) would have been made to walk there

No, I don't think those taken in Palestine had to do such long marches because, as the map shows, the railway to Allepo already existed. It was Mesopotamia with the gap Baghdad (Samara) to Ras el Ain that created the problem. The surrender at Kut of an entire garrison created an enormous logistic problem for the Turks which they were totally incapable of handling decently. But I digress..

 

If you want an idea of what some prisoners of the Turks went through then this Parliamentary Commission Report makes grim reading. Your GF will not have had an easy time but he was lucky that by early 1918 things had improved (relatively).

 

Charlie

[PHalsall]

Well its nice to know he didn't have to walk there, especially if he had already picked up his malaria by then. It looks as if he probably returned on the same rail route, but this time on the roof!

 

Thanks once more.

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Just to add about the poor feeding of the Pow's in these camps.

 

How much that was to do with the Ottoman commander or because all the Ottoman Empire was staving with little food being produced and and the Transport to move that supplies can be blamed on the Ottomans or Germans.

 

Remember Germany was also staving thanks to the British (Allied) blockade 

 

But these poor men were overworked and suffered from many illness, and without German and other doctors helping these men many more would have died.

 

The Red Cross gets little mention by most of these men on the Railway, so who held back there packages could also be due to the lack of Transport or the Ottoman commander is unknown?

 

Charlie,

 

Thanks for that bit on Parker and Smith, there is no account in Camel Corps records about the loss of a POW during the Mazar operation, only the loss of two men during a night march when they fell off their camels, while sleeping on their camels at night, and were over looked till morning when the company arrived in the battle area. A search later failed to find them till much later.

 

S.B

[PHalsall]

Yes that report makes grim reading. No real surprises though. There is another work on the topic that I will make it my business to get hold of soon. Looks interesting.

In the hands of the Turk: British, Indian and Dominion prisoners from the ranks in the Ottoman empire, 1914-8. Brown, P.C.

[PHalsall]

Hi

 

Some extra detail on the Newcombe detachment. This article relates the experiences of a survivor, an Australian by the name of McPherson. Suggests that the survivors were spared by the intervention of a German officer, then marched barefoot to Aleppo and on to the Taurus mountains for further ill treatment.... Not sure if you have McPherson on your list of Newcombe men either? 

 

 

http://empirecall.pbworks.com/w/page/61592428/McPherson-J-C-Pte-2309

[charlie962]

An interesting link.

 

It refers to this list which I haven't yet found on ICRC site but will keep looking. It may have the other men I cannot find on ICRC.

Mc Pherson JC  "Interned Afion, Kara Hissar
Camp No 5204
Ottoman Red Crescent List dated 1/6/18"

 

Charlie

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Macpherson was an aussie, one of four known is this operation, he was one of a number of men in MG training at El Arish when asked to go.

 

McPHERSON    John Charles    2309    Pte    8 LHR    16R tos 11Co/3Bn ICC 7-16 to T/Cpl 6-17 to L/Cpl 11-16 to Sgt MG school El Arish 10-17 att 5Co/2Bn 10-17 PoW 2-11-17 reported MIA member of picked MG gunners of Col Newcombs Force which cut off Beersheba from Hebron, they were wiped out before our forces could relieve them sent to work on the Ottoman railway

 

O'NEILL    Joseph Henry    2148    Pte    8 LHR    15R to 11Co/3Bn ICC 7-16 att 5Co/2Bn 10-17 PoW 2-11-17 member of picked MG gunners of Col Newcombs Force which cut off Beersheba from Hebron, they were wiped out before our forces could relieve them sent to work on the Ottoman railway repat to UK 12-18 sister Agnes RRC AANS

 

THORNEYCROFT    Henry Edward    2167    Pte    9 LHR    15R to 3 LHTR 4-16 to 3 double sqn 7-16 to 4 Cml Regt 11-16 to 18Co/4Bn ICC 2-17 att 5Co/2Bn 10-17 WIA 2-11-17 & PoW 2-11-17 reported a member of Col Newcomb's Force which cut off Beersheba from Hebron to Belemdik Camp Turkey repat to Egypt 11-18 

 

HIGGS    Havelock    1006A    Pte    11 LHR    4R att A Troop CSqn/Comp LHR 11-15 to 13Co/3Bn ICC 7-16 to Cpl 11-16 to T/Sgt 9-17 att 2Bn 5Co 10-17 killed a member of Col Newcombs Force which cut off Beersheba from Hebron NKG listed on Jerusalem Memorial Palestine reported KIA 1-11-17 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 21 June , 2018 by stevebecker

[PHalsall]

Hi Steve, this is just for completeness of your records. Shows that James Irwin was in 5th Company, ICC.

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Looks interesting.

 

Are there any more men shown to the Camel Corps in there?

 

Cheers

S.B

[PHalsall]

Hi Steve,

 

Ill have a look.

 

Discovered some more anecdotal stuff. A younger brother, Phillip, who was only 12 when the war was over left some simple written accounts. He state that Jim was slightly wounded at Sulva bay and had dysentry, so went to Malta for a few months. After that Eygpt and joined the ICC, which he enjoyed. In 1917 he was 'behind enemy lines and the whole company, including the colonel, were captured and marched north into Turkey. They were stripped of everything and in some villages they went through women would come out and daub salt on their backs, presumably for healing purposes. From their they walked in the wilds. They were starved, beaten, and ill most of the time. When they were able to travel on train it would mean travelling on the roof of the trains as most of the poor did in those times'.  I think that confirms, at least in my view that he was in the Newcombe force indicated by the capture of the colonel. The march also matches the account of John McPherson above. He goes on to say that he escaped through Salonica, Greece, then crossed the Adriatic to Italy arriving at Bridisi. After that he made his way to Calais and crossed to Dover. I am surprised by this route home, I would have thought that a short hop to Allepo would bring him to friendly troops earlier. Equally, he must surely have found friendly troops at some point sooner and then been helped back, seems unlikely that he would have had to do all that route alone. Memory is a fragile thing isnt it?

 

Thanks for your interest in this and Ill keep coming back, especially with anything specific about the ICC>

 

Pete

[PHalsall]

Hi

Probably showing my naivety here but I know there are people on the forum interested in the story of Newcombe's Detachment relating to the Battle for Beersheba. Came across this account on the internet 'Through Palestine with the 20th Machine Gun Squadron', free download here https://www.scribd.com/document/2399120/Through-Palestine-with-the-20th-Machine-Gun-Squadron-by-Unknown

 

It suggests (accurately or not?) that Lieut. Macmillan and five O.R.'s (Ptes. J. Howlett, A. Jacques, S. Morris, A. Tivey and E.A. Riley), who were chosen as stout-hearted men, reported to Col. Newcombe, R.E., D.S.O., at Gamli, for special [14]duty. Bad luck attended them, however! The whole party was captured a few days later.

 

That 'stout-hearted men' description has appeared before and in my understanding was addressed to the men recruited from El Arish, but the names are different here and I dont seem able to find them on the forum so thought I'd throw it into the mix.

 

It also suggests that they were attacked by 143rd Regiment from Tel esh Sheria, in addition to the forces indicated here. Could be a suspect reference I suppose, no name attributed to it.

 

Pete

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Thanks for that, I show men from the 20 MG Sqn in the Force but didn't know who they were.

 

I 'll check to see who they are.

 

MacMillan    CD        Lt    tos C Sect/20 MG Sqn 7-17 shown Lt MacMillan and 5 men att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 repat to Egypt 11-18 to Capt Ex South Nottinghamshire Hussars
Howlett    James    41205    Pte    tos 20 MG Sqn 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex Hussars (6753) & MGC (cav) 
Jacques    Arthur    110869    Pte    tos 20 MG Sqn 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex & MGC (cav) brother Arthur 20 MG Sqn Ex South Nottinghamshire Hussars (1766) 
Morris    S        Pte    tos 20 MG Sqn 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 possibly Benjamin Morris Ex South Nottinghamshire Hussars (864) to Corps of Hussars (280060)
Tivey    Albert    110890    Pte    tos 20 MG Sqn 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex South Nottinghamshire Hussars (968) & MGC (cav) 
Riley    Ernest A    51174    Pte    tos 20 MG Sqn 7-17 att Newcombes Force WIA 1-11-17 & Pow 1-11-17 DoW 1-11-17 reported supposed wounded not heard of since presumed dead by War Office Ex Dragoon Guards (6037) & MGC (cav) 
 

Strange they mention the 143rd Ottoman Regt, as it was part of the 24th Div and in Reserve around Sheria (as you mention) with the 16th Div. They would have had to move a long way to get to the Daharryeh Hills around Kuwailfeh.

 

I checked the maps for the next recorded date, that being 2 Nov 1917, and it shows the 143rd Regt still around Sheria but the 26th Div had now moved next to it to cover the gap between Sheria and Kuwailfeh

 

The 26th Div was part of the 20th Corps with the Sheria Group.

 

shown Oct 1917 Allied reports (4115 men) 54 Mgs 18 per Regt) 59th Regt 76th Regt 78th Regt - shown BOWH Oct 1917 (2901 men) -

 

Cheers

 

S.B

 

 

Edited 24 July , 2018 by stevebecker

[Guest]

 

Mate,

 

I notice this on MacMillan

 

He returned to Alexandria on the 21 Nov 1918 via Smyrna as a repat PoW

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[PHalsall]

Thanks Steve,

 

I must admit, the accounts about who attacked Newcombe's force, and on which dates seem very varied and confusing. There is also the successful interception of supplies going to Beersheba which might be easily missed but is mentioned on the link above.

 

You probably spotted it but pages 61-70 lists all the known men of the machine gun squadron with their names and addresses, no numbers. Then a few additions later on.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[PHalsall]

Hi

 

With tremendous assistance from experts on this forum I was able to complete an account of James Irwin about a year ago. Job done. However, a few points of interest have arisen recently that I would like to share. He has a surviving son (living in Canada) and daughter, both in their nineties. We had a family reunion recently which sparked some memories and resulted in unearthing some interesting artefacts. 

His son still has his camel corps cap badge, though the rear leg of the camel has broken off. James was one of Newcombe's force captured near Beersheba, they were stripped of anything valuable including shirts and boots and marched bare footed to Aleppo and beyond to camps in the Taurus mountains. in James' case, Gelebek. Half starved and near naked they bartered anything they had left along the way for food. It was a pretty similar experience in camp before he escaped on a train roof. I found it very moving that he clung onto his badge throughout all of this and brought it home with him. His son also had three postcards sent home from Gelebek. I'll post images if anyone is interested.

On another thread in this forum on a slightly different topic, Hywyn unearthed for me addresses of soldiers in the 4th Cheshires who lived in the same road as James Irwin. We were trying to identify an unknown man in a photograph. Anyway the point of importance here is that the service numbers of the other Cheshire men in his road are all ICC rather than Cheshire. They were obviously transferred en masse. There can't be many streets boasting this number of Cameliers! It would be really interesting to know what became of these men and if any of them were also in Newcombe's force.

 

These are 4th Cheshire men in Rodney Street (House number showing first):

 

17 201277 Edward James Hughes Dugard

 

29 200232 William Henry Jackson

 

65 200140 Sydney Henshaw Edwards

 

113  200141 James Irwin

 

115 200427 John Henry Jones

 

121 200439 Robert Over

 

124 200047 Ralph R Shape

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited 19 December , 2019 by PHalsall

[PHalsall]

Hi

Clearly an error in my thinking there, these numbers dont necessarily indicate ICC. Nevertheless as the 4th Cheshires seem to have been frequently attached to the ICC it would be interesting to know if any of these did so, and should any off them have been Newcombe's men that would be a bonus!

 

Pete 

[Guest]

Pete,

 

Sorry mate no record of any of these men with the ICC

 

Mate how did you find these men?

 

200047 Ralph R Shape (I could not find only)

 

Sharp, Ralph Corps: Northamptonshire Regiment & 

Cheshire Regiment

203229

 

and 200439 Robert Over

Over, Richard Corps: Cheshire Regiment Regiment 10131, and or

 

Over, Roy Corps: Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment & 

Cheshire Regiment

70038

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 21 December , 2019 by stevebecker

[PHalsall]

Thanks Steve, much appreciated. On another thread on this forum we were trying to establish the identity of a soldier posing with my grandad. We decided it might have been taken in his own street in Birkenhead (Merseyside). A contributor to the forum, Hywyn, supplied this information showing men in the 4th Btn Cheshire Reg who lived in his street. This is his quote below

 

 

A quick look at others in Cheshire 4th Bn in Silver War Badge lists & suviving records gives

 

1290/200119 Arthur Finney  enlisted 19 4 1912

1341/nil  Hebert Pugh  16 5 1912

1344/nil Roddan  13 9 1912

1348/200141 James Irwin 

1367/200151 Thomas  11 11 1912

1404/200158 Hackman 17 1 1913

 

I hope that helps.