Beselare Posted 16 June , 2015 Share Posted 16 June , 2015 On the Indian Memorial at Neuve Chapelle, there are many names listed with the rank of 'Follower'. I presume these men did not carry a rifle, but I wondered if anyone knows what the British equivalent might have been? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 16 June , 2015 Share Posted 16 June , 2015 There was no direct British equivalent, though British regiments in India would have it's followers. They included cooks, religious leaders, watercarriers, sweeps, grooms, smiths and so on. They had an entitlement to campaign medals. Remember Gunga Din ? The "regimental bhisti" (watercarrier). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill24chev Posted 16 June , 2015 Share Posted 16 June , 2015 There was no direct British equivalent, though British regiments in India would have it's followers. They included cooks, religious leaders, watercarriers, sweeps, grooms, smiths and so on. They had an entitlement to campaign medals. Remember Gunga Din ? The "regimental bhisti" (watercarrier). or the "natives" in "it aint alf hot mum" and not to be confused with camp followers a term that covered may things including wives apparently . My wife once had to be restrained when a pompous Major called her "only a camp follower" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 16 June , 2015 Share Posted 16 June , 2015 This link may be of interest: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=T46DIuNeFlAC&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=indian+army+rank+follower&source=bl&ots=SNBsWCTGEQ&sig=Qav04IJJBKHH043yBiqoRjwJ6r4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0sQrVNfWNYmu7AbAlYCYCg#v=onepage&q=indian%20army%20rank%20follower&f=false Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beselare Posted 17 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 June , 2015 Thank you all for putting me in the picture. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scalyback Posted 17 June , 2015 Share Posted 17 June , 2015 There is a follower listed on the panel of the 9th Bhopal infantry on the south west pillar of the Menin Gate, handy for demonstrating the leave no one out attitude of the CWGC.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 17 June , 2015 Share Posted 17 June , 2015 or the "natives" in "it aint alf hot mum" and not to be confused with camp followers a term that covered may things including wives apparently . My wife once had to be restrained when a pompous Major called her "only a camp follower" And not just wives were subject to this. When I was at Staff College as a civilian in the RN Supply Service (which is all civilian), I was talking to some jumped up army officer before lunch, and he was going on about civilians and how unreliable they are, etc etc. The Commander of our course (much higher rank) heard him, marched over and said in a loud voice, "He's family. Stop it". Exit one army officer with everyone looking at him. Becau, of course, we/I was and are, in the Navy List as officers, with ranks (I was a Lieutenant Commander RNR (Special Duties) when I left). Among other things it's supposed to be a protection if you are made a POW a any time. I always though that the "Special Duties" would ensure a firing squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 All Have been trying to put together how a Bn in India functioned on a daily basis. Have been astounded by the number of Indian Followers that were allowed on the establishment. Indian Army Order 351 of July 1915 allowed the battalion to have : 39x Public Indian Followers and 48x Private Indian Followers. Thats 87 for a battalion of 831 men.Does anyone have a reasonable overview of the roles and responsibilities of these followers ? Also I know that the followers went with the Bn's to Mesopotamia and Africa but does anyone know if they went with them to Egypt ? Anyone have a better understanding ? Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 There is another GWF thread Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 Thanks Maureen Missed that one. Cant open David's link does that explain the difference between public and private followers ? Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushfighter Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 Dave Greetings. No it doesn't. It mentions priests, blacksmiths, water carriers, cooks, grooms, sweepers, waiters, carriers, wheel-rights, leather workers and carpenters. My assumption is that these were public followers as they were needed to keep the unit operational. My understanding is that private followers were paid by the nominated persons in the regiment who were entitled to hire and use them. And here my assumption is that these were private servants akin to batmen. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 Harry Thanks for that. I think the priests, blacksmiths, water carriers, cooks, grooms etc you mention were outside of the establishment. I went back the the A.O. establishments and each Double Coy had 6 only public followers on the establishment. Outside of this only the shoemaker had a local assistant. The rest of the establishment approved public followers seem to be on the medical establishment which had 14x public followers most of which were bearers. With respect to the private followers : From what I can tell officers above subalterns were allowed 2x local servants, the subaltern (hard life) only x1 (except the MG Section officer who was also entitled to 2x). The MO was entitled to 3x private followers. I had tagged them for "private use" rather than as you state that their costs were covered by the individual officers but I have no data to support this. What is interesting is that I dont see the constant references to "my boy" that you do in the earlier African units we had discussed previously. I dont have a single ref in any of many personal officer reminisces. I believe there were many more local hangers on than the established followers. The numbers of which already threw me. The barracks must have teemed with local domestics. All in all starting to paint a very different life in India than the malaria infested nightmare of my early imaginings. Life seems to have been very organized, if not actually comfortable. Officers lives especially seem to have maintained the trappings of the Raj. In the Devons I have wives in attendance, all the normal colonial activities, one officer even bringing his kennels over from the UK. Passages to and from the UK remained relatively open for those inclined without serious limitations. . Add to that cities much more developed than I had previously understood, a developed infrastructure, with an established, and solid, civil service and expatriate lifestyle. For a "well to do" TF officer, with a private income from home, it must have been some adventure. Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 An example of the scales. The 2/10th Gurkha Rifles War Diary of 31st May 1915 when embarking for the Dardanelles: 31st May 15. The Battalion bivouacked on shore and marched on board at 05:00, the ship sailing at 06:00. The Battalion embarked strength as under:- British Officers -13. Gurkha Officers - 17. SAS - 1. NCOs - 75. Buglers - 14. Rank & File - 645. Public Followers - 44. Private Followers - 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 Thanks Martin Makes you wonder what the rules were on private follower (PteF) embarking with the Bn. Going to dig more. Your post closest I've come to a ref for PteF's going to Egypt with embarking Bn's. Many thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 Thanks Martin Makes you wonder what the rules were on private follower (PteF) embarking with the Bn. Going to dig more. Your post closest I've come to a ref for PteF's going to Egypt with embarking Bn's. Many thanks Dave I have recently transcribed the 29th Indian Inf Bde diaries* for the Gallipoli campaign and they are full of references to followers - mostly unspecified as to whether public or private. Interestingly every reinforcement draft was accompanied by a few followers. 30th Jul 15. Brigade Parade on which announcement made by Lord Kitchener of British victory gained in Asiatic Turkey was read. Arrivals:- Capt J SIMPSON, 2 Lt P W WALPOLE. 3 Gurkha Officers, OR 137, followers 7. * Units: HQ 29th Indian Inf Bde 1/4th Bn Gurkha Rifles 1/5th Bn Gurkha Rifles 1/6th Bn Gurkha Rifles 2/10th Bn Gurkha Rifles 14th KGO Ferozepore Sikhs 69th Pubjabis 89th Punjabis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 Still working it but there were ordinary and "extra-ordinay" followers. Extraordinary didnt follow normal rates of pay but their entitlements did. Thoughts ? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 Martin Interesting. So in the case of the 1/4th Gurkhas these are followers who went to France and then went on to Egypt with the Bn. More and more questions : a. How does the follower situation change for an Indian (or Nepal Bn) vs an English one ? b. What happened when a unit moved off the strength of an IEF ? Let you know what else I find. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 Contracts of followers who did not embark with a departing Bn were maintained by the Depot until such a point that they expired or were found alternitive employment. Depots were also not small at > 100 men, especially after the start of the depot companies. Not sure if this was different public (PubF) vs PteF's. Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 Martin Interesting. So in the case of the 1/4th Gurkhas these are followers who went to France and then went on to Egypt with the Bn. More and more questions : a. How does the follower situation change for an Indian (or Nepal Bn) vs an English one ? b. What happened when a unit moved off the strength of an IEF ? Let you know what else I find. Dave I assume they were in France. The diary in France does not specifically mention followers despite a diary entry showing the Battalion strength immediately on departure so there is a possibility that the followers joined later. I cant see how a battalion could function properly in France without its followers and I have always assumed followere were in France. I am about to transcribe the IEF A diaries for France 1914-15 and if anything come out of it I will let you know. I assume you have access to all the relevant books on the Indian Army and the Great War. There are three that are essential reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 No guarentee's. Which three are you thinking ? Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 1/9th Gurkha Rifles War Diary: Appendix A Oct 1914: Strength of battalion arriving at MERVILLE: BOs...............................10 GOs...............................15 NCOs and men........... 728 Followers.......................41 2/8th Bn Gurkha Rifles War Diary 19th Oct 1914 MARSEILLES. 10.21 am. 13 BOs, 17 GOs 730 Rank and File, 12 MG Mules, 34 Transport Mules, 9 AT Carts, 14 Transport Establishment, 24 public followers and 18 private followers left by train for the advanced base. It is worth noting the sum of followers with 2/8th Bn GR was 42 against 1/9th GR's 41. This might provide some indication of the splits when deploying to France. Incidentally when I served we still had some civilian Nepalese attached to the regiment - in particular the pandit (priest) was a civilian and not a commissioned officer in the way British Army Chaplains were commissioned officers. My understanding is that in the Great War the pandits would not go overseas as they would lose caste. For some castes crossing the sea was not possible. The Gurkhas while officially categorised as Hindus were mostly Buddhists. Hinduism and Buddhism overlap considerably and share common ground in many areas. It is quite complex. You might want to track down copies of Handbooks for the Indian Army - Gurkhas Handbooks for the Indian Army - Sikhs Handbooks for the Indian Army - Dogras etc... for a detailed understanding of the very complex subtleties of the Indian Army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 No guarentee's. Which three are you thinking ? Regards Dave In order: Morton Jack Merewether and Smith Corrigan Edit: I would Add Philip Mason's "A Matter of Honour: An Account of the Indian Army, its Officers and Men" which the Daily Telegraph describes as 'magnificent'. They are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 Martin Have got "Indian Army on the Western Front" and "Indian Corps in France". Dont have "Sepoys in the trenches" and have been promising myself a copy for ages. Got a few others on the WF but am very limited on the Indian Army on the Home Front. Any recommendations that side of the pond? Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 Martin Have got "Indian Army on the Western Front" and "Indian Corps in France". Dont have "Sepoys in the trenches" and have been promising myself a copy for ages. Got a few others on the WF but am very limited on the Indian Army on the Home Front. Any recommendations that side of the pond? Regards Dave Most are big fans of Corrigan's work. I am not, but it did fill a rather large gap. Morton-Jack's work is head and shoulders above the rest in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddycher Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 There are a number of "modern" histories but always cross ref Willcocks' original "With the Indians in France" myself. I like the way he had his own mind then and still comes over that way now.. regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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