375060 Thomas Dick 12th Royal Scots

[SpidermansGaffer]

Hi,

This is my first post so be gentle with me!

I'm looking for some advice on how to get my grandfathers Medal Index Card, all I have been able to find on National Archives is his Military Medal award card.

His name is -

Thomas Dick (Regimental Numbrr 375060)

12th Battalion Royal Scots

Also, can anybody advise me on how to get a copy of the entry in the London Gazette?

Will this tell me how he won the M.M?

The Gazette date is 27.6.18

Registered paper 68/121/543

Schedule Number 168812

Thanks.

[stevem49]

Are you on ancestry? His MIC is on there (I believe we are not allowed to put them on this list) so find a way of letting me have your email address

Very rare to give details of MM awards but the war diaries occasionally mention a reason.

Steve M

[roughdiamond]

This is a link to his London Gazette entry http://www.london-ga...upplements/7589 MM entries do not give details, your best bet would be to check local newspapers from around the date of the gazette entry (I see he's listed as from Bathgate, do you live there or nearby?). His Medal card on the National Archives lists his number as 375050 http://discovery.nat...ls?uri=D2616902 so either the number on his Service Medal card or the MM medal card is wrong or one has been listed wrongly.

Im inclined to say it's the number on his Service Medal card as there's one for a 375050 Sgt J M Heriot http://discovery.nat...ls?uri=D2829696

and other than the MM card there's no other card for Service Number 375060 in the Royal Scots.

Sam

[stevem49]

Sam

The MIC has 375060 so the NA ref must be wrong.

Steve

[SpidermansGaffer]

I can't believe how quick you guys are! Thank you very much, my 82yr old father will be thrilled with the Gazette entry.

We have all his medals intact, the WW1 ones all have 375060 stamped onto them so I assume the NA have got his number slightly incorrect?

He went on to serve in WW2 and ended being granted the Honarary Rank of Lieutenant when he relinquished his commission in 1954.

Quite a career!

[stevem49]

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1262&iid=30850_A000444-00384&fn=Thomas&ln=Dick&st=r&ssrc=&pid=4207080

Check above link

Steve

[roughdiamond]

If he served in WW2 his service record may remain intact with the MOD and you can apply for copies, this tells you how http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html would I be correct in assuming his WW2 service was as an Other Rank (OR) and not a Commissioned Officer?

Sam

[SpidermansGaffer]

If he served in WW2 his service record may remain intact with the MOD and you can apply for copies, this tells you how http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html would I be correct in assuming his WW2 service was as an Other Rank (OR) and not a Commissioned Officer?

Sam

Have got a copy of his service record but having trouble understanding army jargon!

[eltoro1960]

The 375060 number is a post 1917 number allocated to the 10th Royal Scots (Cyclists) who recruited in Linlithgowshire, West Lothian as we now know it. His career with the 12th RS must have started post January,1917

John

[SpidermansGaffer]

The 375060 number is a post 1917 number allocated to the 10th Royal Scots (Cyclists) who recruited in Linlithgowshire, West Lothian as we now know it. His career with the 12th RS must have started post January,1917

John

I'm confused! Was this normal procedure to change battalions?

[ss002d6252]

I'm confused! Was this normal procedure to change battalions?

Men would be sent wherever they were needed - often though men were transferred after they had been recuperating in hospital and the original battalion had filled their space when they were away. They would then be passed on to whatever battalion needed men.

[eltoro1960]

I'm confused! Was this normal procedure to change battalions?

This was common practice during the war particularly between Battalions of same regiment. The 10th Royal Scots were retainef on coastal defence throughout the war. However they were 'cherry picked' for men frequently. Territorial men retained their TF number regardless of where they were sent.

[kenf48]

If you're having trouble interpreting Army jargon can I suggest you visit the parent site, the Long Long Trail (LLT) using the link at the top right of the page. 'On the Trail of a Tommy'

Initially you might like to have a look at the Medals section as it not only gives details of the Campaign Medals but also the Territorial Force War Medal which he was also entitled to. http://www.1914-1918...d/themedals.htm The mic confirms he did not go overseas until after 1 January 1916, but if you have his record it should tell you when he transferred to the 12th Bn. It is possible he did not initially volunteer for overseas service, or sign the 'Imperial Obligation', again see LLT http://www.1914-1918.net/tf.htm

As for the movements of the10th / 12th Bn once again as noted in the post above http://www.1914-1918.../royalscots.htm and follow the link on the right hand side of the page to the 9th (Scottish) Division.

Ken

[SpidermansGaffer]

Thanks for the info folks. Is there any way I can find out when he was transferred in to the 12th Scots?

Also, his obituary states he was shot and had 3 bullets removed from his stomach without anaesthetic (ow!) then captured and released at the end of the war. Is there anyway to find out any further info?

His M.M is dated June 1918

[kenf48]

In post 8 you say you have a copy of his 'service record' this should tell you when he transferred unless of course he was 'disembodied' at the end of the war and rejoined as a regular sometime later.

The fact that only the 6 digit number is on the mic (and medals) means he probably did not go overseas, as noted above, until 1917 after the renumbering. He would originally have had a four (or, less likely, five digit number).

There is some information available on POWs and when they were repatriated. The Red Cross also has some records but a search is very expensive.

http://www.redcross....risoners-of-war

In general I'd suggest it's best to hammer out the basics from local resources first and then as you gain more knowledge branch out into what can be a specialist area.

The Red Cross also has plans to digitise their WW1 records in time for 2014 so again, probably best to wait.

Ken

[SpidermansGaffer]

In post 8 you say you have a copy of his 'service record' this should tell you when he transferred unless of course he was 'disembodied' at the end of the war and rejoined as a regular sometime later.

The fact that only the 6 digit number is on the mic (and medals) means he probably did not go overseas, as noted above, until 1917 after the renumbering. He would originally have had a four (or, less likely, five digit number).

There is some information available on POWs and when they were repatriated. The Red Cross also has some records but a search is very expensive.

http://www.redcross....risoners-of-war

In general I'd suggest it's best to hammer out the basics from local resources first and then as you gain more knowledge branch out into what can be a specialist area.

The Red Cross also has plans to digitise their WW1 records in time for 2014 so again, probably best to wait.

Ken

As far as I can see, his service record states he enlisted in 1912 under the 375060 number, then mobilised 05.08.14

De-mobilised 19.05.19

Thanks for helping though.

[SpidermansGaffer]

If I emailed a copy of his service record, could any kind soul help me to interpret it and answer some of my questions?

If so, send me a pm and I'll forward on the details I have.

Regards,

Greg Dick.

[kenf48]

As far as I can see, his service record states he enlisted in 1912 under the 375060 number, then mobilised 05.08.14 De-mobilised 19.05.19 Thanks for helping though.

That doesn't make sense as the six digit number TF numbers were not issued until 1917 as noted by John at post 9 above.

He may well have joined the TF in 1912 but if he was demobilised in 1919 his record will probably not be with the MOD as at post 7 (or at least not his WW1 record)

I'm not sure what documents you're looking at.

The way the forum works is you post your question(s) and folk will try to help you, it's more a collective process.

Ken

[SpidermansGaffer]

Sorry guys, I've been assuming the letter I have from the M.O.D was actually his service record.

My mistake I think.

[kenf48]

Thanks for the info folks. Is there any way I can find out when he was transferred in to the 12th Scots?

I've found a Pte 375079 David Livingstone who was discharged from the 1/10th Bn on 4/9/1917 suffering from neurasthenia.

He joined the TF in March 1914 and was mobilised to the 1/10th on the 5th August1914; he served 'at home' until 28th July 1916 and was sent to France the following day, unfortunately he lasted less than a month and was invalided home on 25th August where he remained until his discharge from the 1/10th.

Regrettably the record does not say which Battalion he was with in France.

Also a fascinating record of a soldier Thomas Campbell (375600) who confessed to desertion, in his correspondence is a letter that says '...I joined up on 1916 with the first Tenth Royal Scots then stationed at North Berwick my battalion then left and went to Curragh Camp and from there right away to France and transferred to the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Scots, third division,…"

It's quite possible that a group of men went out from the 1/10th in July 1916 and were allocated to Bns from the Infantry Base Depot in France but as noted above the original Bn was 'cherry picked' throughout the war (post 12)

I also had a look at casualties and men in the 12th Bn who were previously in TF Bns.(although none from the 1/10th) they start appearing in the CWGC records from around July 1916.

So rough guess the 1/10th were sent to Ireland (still a 'home' posting) following the 'Easter Rising 1916' and from there the able bodied were drafted out to join other Bns on active service, probably as replacements initially to bring those Bns up to strength for the Somme offensive, or later to make up losses from the campaign. Bear in mind that many of these men may have enlisted for "Home Service' but by February 1916 and the introduction of the Military Service Act (conscription) this distinction had ceased and all became eligible for active service if physically fit. On reflection I'd take issue with the January 1917 service (post 9) for as John says at post 12 he would have been renumbered in the TF series wherever he was serving.

If you can find the 12th Bn war diary it might be worth looking for drafts around 1916 although unlikely he would be mentioned by name, regrettably as the 1/10th did not serve overseas I don't believe you'll find a diary for them. It would also be worth looking at the diary to see if there is any mention of his MM.

Ken

[SpidermansGaffer]

I've found a Pte 375079 David Livingstone who was discharged from the 1/10th Bn on 4/9/1917 suffering from neurasthenia.

He joined the TF in March 1914 and was mobilised to the 1/10th on the 5th August1914; he served 'at home' until 28th July 1916 and was sent to France the following day, unfortunately he lasted less than a month and was invalided home on 25th August where he remained until his discharge from the 1/10th.

Regrettably the record does not say which Battalion he was with in France.

Also a fascinating record of a soldier Thomas Campbell (375600) who confessed to desertion, in his correspondence is a letter that says '...I joined up on 1916 with the first Tenth Royal Scots then stationed at North Berwick my battalion then left and went to Curragh Camp and from there right away to France and transferred to the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Scots, third division,…"

It's quite possible that a group of men went out from the 1/10th in July 1916 and were allocated to Bns from the Infantry Base Depot in France but as noted above the original Bn was 'cherry picked' throughout the war (post 12)

I also had a look at casualties and men in the 12th Bn who were previously in TF Bns.(although none from the 1/10th) they start appearing in the CWGC records from around July 1916.

So rough guess the 1/10th were sent to Ireland (still a 'home' posting) following the 'Easter Rising 1916' and from there the able bodied were drafted out to join other Bns on active service, probably as replacements initially to bring those Bns up to strength for the Somme offensive, or later to make up losses from the campaign. Bear in mind that many of these men may have enlisted for "Home Service' but by February 1916 and the introduction of the Military Service Act (conscription) this distinction had ceased and all became eligible for active service if physically fit. On reflection I'd take issue with the January 1917 service (post 9) for as John says at post 12 he would have been renumbered in the TF series wherever he was serving.

If you can find the 12th Bn war diary it might be worth looking for drafts around 1916 although unlikely he would be mentioned by name, regrettably as the 1/10th did not serve overseas I don't believe you'll find a diary for them. It would also be worth looking at the diary to see if there is any mention of his MM.

Ken

Thanks again Ken,

I've found him on the 'Armadale & District Roll of Honour 1914-1919' Listed as a private under the Bathgate company of 10th (Cyclists) Royal Scots (territorial force) Imperial Service Volunteers.

As you say he could have been picked at any time to got to France. I'm still working through the War Diary of the 12th Battalion post 1916.

The Ireland posting is very interesting as well.

I also note that after WW1 this battalion was reduced to a 'cadre' and the 4th/5th (Queens Battalion) were transferred to the Royal Artillary (14 West Lothian Royal Scots) Light AA regiment.

This explains why it shows on the mod letter I have that he re-enlisted on 03.06.29 as 3052502 into the Royal Scots Territorial Army and posted to 4th/5th Battalion which as stated above was then part of the Royal Artillary.

From there he was given a commission into the Pioneer Corps mid 1943

The only pictures I have of him are as a young man in the Royal Scots uniform, and during WW2 in the RWAFF uniform! How he got there is another matter for another day...

Greg.

[tommie]

http://www.ww1daleboys.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=187013387

 

http://www.ww1daleboys.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=187013388

 

http://www.ww1daleboys.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=187013386

 

Greg,

 

I believe your grandfather is in the above photographs on my website.

 

Kind Regards

 

Tom

[elmac]

My Great Grandfather Sjt James Gordon has a story similar to Sjt Dick's.  His service number is also similar. 375064. They likely knew each other!

 

Served with the 10th Battalion Royal Scots, volunteered for service overseas Sept 1914, and is listed with the 15th and the 2nd Bn Royal Scots.  I got lots of guidance when I asked about him last year. I wonder if he appears in one of the photos above. I only have photos of him in his (much) older days, but will see what if my family sees a resemblance.