Simon127 Posted 12 March , 2012 Share Posted 12 March , 2012 Hi All, Does any one know what the markings on this SMLE butt disc might signify? I'm sure they're not British but am curious all the same. Cheers, Simon Uploaded with ImageShack.us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 12 March , 2012 Share Posted 12 March , 2012 Kings African Rifles. the R is badly stamped at an angle khaki or maybe it's a 2, sorry I get excited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 12 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 March , 2012 Thanks Khaki. How sure are you? I see the 'KA' but no 'R' although there is a faintly stuck outline of what could be an R after the A??? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 12 March , 2012 Share Posted 12 March , 2012 Sorry If I may have led you astray on that one, I am ok with the K A and when I looked at the small numbers the second number at first glance appeared to be an 'R' but may be a '2' but somehow as a 2 it still doesn't look right, but as my eyes are getting older it may be just me. The stamping of the "2" looked consistent with the letters, being shallow/incomplete. good luck khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 12 March , 2012 Share Posted 12 March , 2012 Sorry If I may have led you astray on that one, I am ok with the K A and when I looked at the small numbers the second number at first glance appeared to be an 'R' but may be a '2' but somehow as a 2 it still doesn't look right, but as my eyes are getting older it may be just me. The stamping of the "2" looked consistent with the letters, being shallow/incomplete. good luck khaki My reading of the markings are KA 4 26 115 usually this would be Unit Date Rack number So that would be ? April 1926 weapon no. 115 Not sure I can think of anything British that KA might be. Are there any indications of Indian use or ownership on this rifle? KA might be Kirkee/Khadki Arsenal which I think was the home of the Indian Army Officer Cadet School as well as a major arsenal until at least WWII. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 Hi Simon, I have spent a bit of time on this one,partly to remove the "egg on my face" I cannot report great success, however I have seen another disc with 'K A' on it, it was stamped to the Garwhal Rifles. I am not suggesting that this unit is related to your rifle but if the KA refers to an Indian Depot (which I think it does) then some further research on Garwhal units may be useful.in leading to the identification of KA. I will continue to look further. Can you provide any other information about the rifle, eg manufacture, date, stampings metal and wood? regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 I see the 'KA' Simon Page 113 of Skennerton's " The Broad Arrow " - Unit & Issue Markings - India - shows a " K.A. " as being Karachi Artillery Volunteers. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 13 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2012 Thanks Chaps. The rifle is a 1917 dated LSA Mk III but I'm sure that all the parts are not original and do accept that it has probably been reassembled with various other components. I bought it when I was 17 with my first serious pay cheque because I'd always wanted one and recall it was only about £250. I do however believe that the butt disc is an original disc - even if not to this weapon - and have been trying for some time to work out what it stands for. So how do we feel about Karachi Artillery Volunteers from April 1926? I've added a few photos. Once directed to the photo on Image Shack click on it for a larger image. Apologies for the background mess; these were taken on a collection 'spring clean' day last year. Note relic German Sappenpanzer body armour breast plate in top left corner (Passchendaele). Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 13 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2012 I have just come across another forum that attributes a 'KA' disc marking to the Karachi Artillery Volunteers although the weapon in this case is a Martini Metford Carbine dated with the disc date of Jan 1917. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 If it is KA, it could be Kincardine, Volunteers. TonyE the one for this. Gerwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 Here is another example of the marking that I found, which extends the date range of possibilities out to at least WW2. My guess is an Indian reissue mark.? And as Chris mentioned above the Kirkee Arsenal would be the first that springs to mind, and they certainly were prominent in rifles right through to post WW2. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 If it is KA, it could be Kincardine, Volunteers. Gerwyn, I can find no listing for a Kincardine Volunteers ? were they Canadian ? In the various references, the only KA listing is for Karachi Artillery Volunteers. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 Gerwyn, I can find no listing for a Kincardine Volunteers ? were they Canadian ? In the various references, the only KA listing is for Karachi Artillery Volunteers. Leo Hi Leo The information I have, came under " Appendices 51-List 2a Volunteers,the North Shore of the Firth of Forth in Fife, Scotland. I will say Scotland , there is a place in Canada Regards. Gerwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 If it is KA, it could be Kincardine, Volunteers. A wee bit too early for a SMLE butt disc. Leo Kincardineshire Volunteers, Scotland. Listings of those who volunteered to join the militia between the years 1798 to 1816... No4, or Captain Monro's Company Captain Charles Monro and his two lieutenants and adjutant were gazetted on 17th September, 1803, although the company had been "accepted" on 20th June 1803, and drilling had begun on the 1st August 1803. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 My list comes from 1900 to 1944, I've just checked again to make sure, the former County Volunteers abbreviations are prefixed with a "V", I can't see one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 My list comes from 1900 to 1944, I've just checked again to make sure, the former County Volunteers abbreviations are prefixed with a "V", I can't see one. Gerwyn, The Kincardineshire Volunteers appear to have been raised in Scotland as a result of the Napoleonic Wars, as were many other Militias and Volunteer Corps at that time, namely 1793 - 1815. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 13 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2012 Thanks again chaps. I have to say that in view of Shipping Steel's butt disc (I always worry when putting this into a google search!) photo and the Garwhal Rifles disc that Khaki turned up (seriously man, don't worry about the whole KAR thing!), it looks like Karachi Artillery Volunteers is the most likely to me. This was a cheapish rifle in pretty rough condition that I fondly spent the Christmas holidays performing an extensive clean up job on and I can easily believe that it found its way back over here after years knocking around in Pakistan or India. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 This was another post on the Butt Disc SMLE Brass Butt Disc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 Thanks again chaps. I have to say that in view of Shipping Steel's butt disc (I always worry when putting this into a google search!) photo and the Garwhal Rifles disc that Khaki turned up (seriously man, don't worry about the whole KAR thing!), it looks like Karachi Artillery Volunteers is the most likely to me. This was a cheapish rifle in pretty rough condition that I fondly spent the Christmas holidays performing an extensive clean up job on and I can easily believe that it found its way back over here after years knocking around in Pakistan or India. S Do you (anyone) have dates for the existence if the Karachi Artillery Volunteers? They do not seem to appear on any of my lists of post WWI Indian units (which may be incomplete) and the name itself seems rather anachronistic even for India. I think there was a significant reorganization on Indian forces in the early 20s so I would expect them to show up. The only references I can find are pre WWI. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 13 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2012 Just spent half an hour searching for them on google and can't find any reference to them during or beyond WW1 although there's a few references to their existence pre WW1. Turned up another couple on sources saying that 'KA' on a stock disc is referring to them but this doesn't explain the date of April 1926 if they were disbanded in the 20s reorganisation. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 Just spent half an hour searching for them on google and can't find any reference to them during or beyond WW1 although there's a few references to their existence pre WW1. S Simon, They were in existance during WW1, and I have a photograph of a soldier who served with the Karachi Artillery Volunteers during WW1 - H.H. Sawyer, Trumpeter to "B" Battery of the Honorable Artillery Company who served with the detachment of that artillery unit that deployed to South Africa during the Anglo-Boer War as part of the City of London Imperial Volunteers. The H.A.C. sent some 193 men to South Africa with the City Imperial Volunteers. These men served in Yeomany, mounted infantry, infantry as well as artillery capacities. Sawyer served with the Field Battery (H.A.C.) of the City Imperial Volunteers during his tenure in South Africa. He was entitled to the Queen's South Africa Medal with clasps "Cape Colony", "Orange Free State" and "Transvaal" Sometime after the end of the Anglo-Boer War Sawyer moved to India where he remained for many years - at least until after the end of World War One. He served with the Karachi Artillery Volunteers eventually attaining the rank of Lieutenant Colonel in the Indian Volunteer Forces. He remained in India During World War One and was attached to 2nd Brigade, Mobile Artillery. He was awarded the British War and Victory Medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 KA might be Kirkee/Khadki Arsenal Chris Chris, Are you sure that the code for Kirkee Arsenal was in fact a " KA " ? or was that just a good guess ? and do you have any references to support it being a KA. As I found several references to rifles from the Kirkee Khadaki Arsenal in India and all had the " KKA " code stamps, which sounds more suitable, Kirkee Khadki Arsenal, i.e. KKA, Regards, Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 13 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2012 If it was for Kirkee Khadki Arsenal, what would that be doing on a butt disc? Assuming, as I always have, that these were for regimental/unit markings. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 Chris, Are you sure that the code for Kirkee Arsenal was in fact a " KA " ? or was that just a good guess ? and do you have any references to support it being a KA. As I found several references to rifles from the Kirkee Khadaki Arsenal in India and all had the " KKA " code stamps, which sounds more suitable, Kirkee Khadki Arsenal, i.e. KKA, Regards, Leo No I am not certain, I am not certain of any Indian markings despite a lot of research! I do know there is some considerable inconsistency including widespread official mismarking (for example of bayonet types) I was inserted the /Khadki in there as I thought that was an alternative translation/rendering of Kirkee - I was not aware the two were distinct and/or used together. Kirkee produced .303 ammunition was stamped KF! Do you have any references to the Karachi Artillery Volunteers existing in the 20s? I have not found any. I wonder if there is anything on the back of the disc? Chris Simon: sometimes locations appear on disc (although they are generall units as you say) I have one marked to RAF Feltwell for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 13 March , 2012 Share Posted 13 March , 2012 All the Indian markings are 'tricky' as they are not always consistent with accepted British procedures of marking. 1. Personally I don't believe this disc is showing a unit marking as such. 2. The addition of an exact date on both the discs shown suggests to me that this was a reissue marking stamped upon leaving a rework depot, rifle factory or arsenal. 3. The later dates shown on the discs throw all reference works on regiment abbreviations out the window. Unit identifiers were probably less commonly used after WW1. 4. Codes, abbreviations and other monikers changed over time, so a reference from 1900 would not be applicable to something that was stamped in the 20's or 40's even. 5. The Kirkee Arsenal (known locally as Khadki locality) used the code KK as in KirKee at one stage, with the Martini marking explained as indicating the KirKee Arsenal. 6. This does show that the arsenal marking was being stamped on rifles in Indian use after being reworked or reissued, with the abbreviation being shortened in later times. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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