Dead Mans Gully - Suvla

[Guest]

I cannot see any buildings in the photo ... please help me out!

Steve,

Does this help - What do you think now - It looks like a building to me

regards

Michael

All - remember this debate about a block house? have a look at photo 13 on this link http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/gallery-e6frer9f-1226044173182?page=13which shows a Turkish parapet built of unbaked bricks. The photo is from Brig Walter Cass's photos recently discovered and posted by GWF member Sepoy. It shows that there were some temporary structures in the theatre. Regards MG.

[Guest]

The attached photo "Dead Man's Gully" is from the album of 2Lt G W B Throckmorton, D Sqn Berkshire Yeomanry courtesy of GWF member Andrew French at the Berkshire Yeomanry Museum.... MG

[michaeldr]

a Turkish parapet built of unbaked bricks. The photo is from Brig Walter Cass's photos recently discovered and posted by GWF member Sepoy. It shows that there were some temporary structures in the theatre

Martin,

Regarding temporary structures made of clay; there are a couple of examples in Kannengiesser's book

op page 256 there is a photograph of 'clay huts' (clay brick?) used by the 25 Infantry Regiment near Palamutluk in October 1915

and on p236 he refers to "The Corps staff quarters lay in a valley west of Turschunkoi, at first in tents with the command post on Teketepe. One by one we built clay huts in the side of the valley which made the Marshal exclaim during his visit; "In what kind of gipsy camp are you living here, then?" Perhaps it did not look very well, but it was extremely practicable, because in spite of the many bomb attacks we had not been disturbed…"

The photograph (op p.256) appears to show the huts roofed with either turfs or branches, so the camouflage would be quite good.

regards

Michael

[Guest]

Hello again.... Following up on my Post No. 77....I have been doing some more research on these photos. There are at least 4 different photos purporting to show Dead Man's Gully or "DMG" which are held in a number of collections.

1.DMG1

a.

This is the photo posted by Krithia in Post No.1

- his private collection.

b.

National Army Museum

- the exact same photo which is title "Dead Man's Ditch Suvla Bay 1915". This photo is in Tpr O Ward's(Middlesex Hussars) photo album and is not attributed. This is one of 4 photos that appear to be copies pasted into his album.

c.

Liddle Collection

. The same photo appears in the "Yarn of a Yeoman" by S F Hatton opposite p.32. It is attributed to SSM Dixon Middlesex Hussars whose photo albums are with the Liddle collection. In Dixon's album in the Liddle Collection, this is also titled "Dead Man's Gully" and is photo No.142 on p.32 of the album.

2. DMG 2

a.

Royal British Legion

. This is a similar photo to DMG1, but is close up of the bodies. It is shown in Steve Newman's Book "Gallipoli Then and Now" p. 152 and is attributed to the Royal British Legion, although I understand that it might now be in private hands.

b.

National Army Museum

- the exact same photo which is also entitled "Dead Man's Gully, Suvla Bay 1915". This photo is in Tpr Ward (Middlesex Hussars) photo album and is not attributed. This is one of 4 photos that appear to be copies pasted into his album.

c.

Liddle Collection

- The Historical Records of the Middlesex Yeomanry by Stonham and Freeman show the same photo opposite p.80. It is attributed to SSM E H Dixon, Middlesex Hussars whose albums are in the Liddle Collection. In Dixon's album in the Liddle Collection, this is also titled "Dead Man's Gully" and is photo No.146 the album.

3. DMG3.

a.

This is the photo posted by Krithia in Post No.13

- his private collection. It shows the 'blockhouse' that we discussed on the thread.

b.

Royal British Legion

. the same photos is shown in Steve Newman's Book "Gallipoli Then and Now" p. 152 and is attributed to the Royal British Legion, although I understand that it might now be in private hands.

c.

National Army Museum

- the same photo, which is titled "

Turkish Shell

, Suvla Bay 1915

". I think we can see a very faint whiff of smoke, so maybe it was an attempt to photograph shelling and the photographer just missed timing it. This photo is in Tpr Ward's (Middlesex Hussars) photo album and is not attributed. This is one of 4 photos that appear to be copies pasted into his album.The photo's provenance is not given

d.

Liddle Collection.

The photo is almost identical to DMG 4 (below) and is undoubtedly taken by the same photographer. In Dixon's album in the Liddle Collection, this is described as "British dead after the attack" and is photo No. 145 in the album.

4. DMG4.

a.

This photo is posted below.

National Army Museum. This is almost identical to DMG3, but from an angle slightly to the left (north) of DMG3 and is titled

"Close to Dead Man's Ditch, Suvla Bay".

This photo is in Tpr Ward's (Middlesex Hussars) photo album and is not attributed. This is one of 4 photos that appear to be copies pasted into his album.The photo's provenance is not given.

The National Army Museum has kindly granted permission to post their copy below for the purposes of research and discussion.

Please respect the NAM's copyright. If anyone needs their own high resolution digital copy, this can be obtained from the NAM for a mere £6.

b.

Royal British Legion

. the same photos is shown in Steve Newman's Book "Gallipoli Then and Now" p. 152 and is attributed to the Royal British Legion, although I understand that it might now be in private hands.

c.

Liddle Collection

. This is also in SSM E H Dixon's album in the Liddle Collection, titled "Mx Yeo killed on patrol" and is photo No.144 on p.35 of the album.

DMG4. The photo is taken from a few feet from the photo titled "Close to Dead Man's Ditch, Suvla Bay" - essentially they are the same location. You will immediately see that it is taken from an angle very slightly left (north) of the one in Post No. 13 (the one with the 'blockhouse'). Crucially, this photo has a wider angle and distinctly shows a slope on the left hand side of the picture. Anyone who has walked this ground can immediately see that this can only be the southern slopes of Green Hill. The same photo has appeared with captions claiming to be Dead Man's Gully in publications. My conclusions are that this photo and the photo in Post No.13 are not 'Dead Man's Gully' or 'Dead Man's Ditch', but slightly further north towards the southern slopes of Green Hill in the vicinity of Yeoman's Knoll. I think it would be easy to pinpoint this on the ground with the photo in one's hand.

My earlier conclusion that the original photographer or at least the original owner of these photos was SSM Edward Hooper Dixon Middlesex Hussars is reinforced. The high correlation of the photos with Middlesex Hussars suggest to me that a Middlesex Hussar took the photo at least. His albums are the ones that are held in the Liddle Collection. I have not seen these myself, so the big caveat is that SSM Dixon may have just taken copies of someone else's photos. I am reliably informed that the photos in question are part of a chronologically continuous set of over 150 photos. Until I have seen the full album it will not be possible to make a conclusive decision. If anyone has seen them and can confirm they are the same photos, it would be extremely useful [Edit: Tunesmith has and confirmed this]. Peter Liddle's "Gallipoli 1915 - pens pencils and Cameras at War" attribute a number of Gallipoli photos to SSM Dixon. I am sure that these photos have appeared in other publications.

The photo in Post No. 1 is, I believe, correctly labelled Dead Man's Gully. I think there is strong evidence here from DMG3 and DMG 4 further confirming DMG1 aka "Dead Man's Gully" is indeed slightly to the south where we speculated it was.

Any mistakes are mine. Regards MG

P.S. Please do respect the NAM's copyright. the image is posted here for research discussions only. Thanks.

P.P.S. Thanks to Tunesmith for the info on the Liddle Collection photos. Indebted to you Sir.

[bluedog]

Martin

Thank you for posting the photo of Dead Mans Gully

As you know,İ am on the Peninsula at the moment and along with the GPS positions we

compared , İ will use the ridge line ın the background to get me into the spot.

Many thanks

Peter

[Guest]

Martin

Thank you for posting the photo of Dead Mans Gully

As you know,İ am on the Peninsula at the moment and along with the GPS positions we

compared , İ will use the ridge line ın the background to get me into the spot.

Many thanks

Peter

Blue Dog.... If you are able to set up the modern day equivalent photo that would be amazing. I think the view point will be in the vicinity of the asterisk or maybe to the right (north) near Dorset Sap on the photo below... this was taken last July from Yeoman's Knoll looking SW backwards towards the British trenches..... the road that bisects Green Hill from Chocolate Hill and runs south towards Azmak Dere can be seen with the car parked on it. Regards MG

[Guest]

And Google Earth... pin [ 40°17'20.72"N 26°16'54.56"E] is in the vicinity.....and Yeoman's Knoll and the modern road are easy to spot.... Note this is what is described as "Close to Dead Man's Ditch" it is not the location of Dead Man's Gully/Ditch" MG

[Gully Ravine]

Forgive me if I have missed this - but was it ever determined that the pictures in posts #1 and #13 ARE the same place? Keith

[Guest]

Forgive me if I have missed this - but was it ever determined that the pictures in posts #1 and #13 ARE the same place? Keith

Hi Gully - personally I don't think they are. The photo's are know under different titles depending on the source. Personally I believe the photo in post No 13 was taken by SSM E H Dixon (Middlesex Hussars) and was originally titled "British Dead After the attack". It is almost identical to another of Dixon's photos titled "Mx Yeo killed on patrol" and titled "Close to Dead Man's Ditch" when used by Tpr Ward (both Middlesex Hussars) - implicitly this is 'near' but not actually the same. Not conclusive, but it is the best evidence we have. Also, from all the contextural information Dead Man's Ditch/Gully was not up tight against Yeoman's Knoll, whereas the un-cropped version of the photo(s) from the NAM clearly shows the photo in Post No 13 to be immediately south of Yeoman's Knoll which appears on the left (north) of the photo. I believe the confusion arises from the photo being wrongly captioned when used in some early publications and this has been perpetuated over the years....From my earlier post No 82:

3. DMG3.

a. This is the photo posted by Krithia in Post No.13 - his private collection. It shows the 'blockhouse' that we discussed on the thread.

b. Royal British Legion. the same photos is shown in Steve Newman's Book "Gallipoli Then and Now" p. 152 and is attributed to the Royal British Legion, although I understand that it might now be in private hands

c. National Army Museum - the same photo, which is titled "Turkish Shell, Suvla Bay 1915". I think we can see a very faint whiff of smoke, so maybe it was an attempt to photograph shelling and the photographer just missed timing it. This photo is in Tpr Ward's (Middlesex Hussars) photo album and is not attributed. This is one of 4 photos that appear to be copies pasted into his album.The photo's provenance is not given

d. Liddle Collection. The photo is almost identical to DMG 4 (below) and is undoubtedly taken by the same photographer. In Dixon's album in the Liddle Collection, this is described as "British dead after the attack" and is photo No. 145 in the album.

4. DMG4.

a. This photo is posted below. National Army Museum. This is almost identical to DMG3, but from an angle slightly to the left (north) of DMG3 and is titled "Close to Dead Man's Ditch, Suvla Bay". This photo is in Tpr Ward's (Middlesex Hussars) photo album and is not attributed. This is one of 4 photos that appear to be copies pasted into his album.The photo's provenance is not given. The National Army Museum has kindly granted permission to post their copy below for the purposes of research and discussion. Please respect the NAM's copyright. If anyone needs their own high resolution digital copy, this can be obtained from the NAM for a mere £6.

b. Royal British Legion. the same photos is shown in Steve Newman's Book "Gallipoli Then and Now" p. 152 and is attributed to the Royal British Legion, although I understand that it might now be in private hands.

c. Liddle Collection. This is also in SSM E H Dixon's album in the Liddle Collection, titled "Mx Yeo killed on patrol" and is photo No.144 on p.35 of the album.

Regards MG

[Gully Ravine]

Hi Martin

I agree the photo appears to be taken from just south (west?) of Yeoman's Knoll. There is a small area of sunken waste ground across the current road from Yeoman's Knoll – do you think it could have been taken there (just east of your pin in post #85)? If not, from one of the water courses nearby? See 1^st photo below. The 2^nd photo was taken looking up the knoll from the road - note the similarity of skyline / scarring to the photo in post #82 despite the different perspective.

Regards Keith

[Guest]

Hi Martin

I agree the photo appears to be taken from just south (west?) of Yeoman's Knoll. There is a small area of sunken waste ground across the current road from Yeoman's Knoll – do you think it could have been taken there (just east of your pin in post #85)? If not, from one of the water courses nearby? See 1^st photo below. The 2^nd photo was taken looking up the knoll from the road - note the similarity of skyline / scarring to the photo in post #82 despite the different perspective.

Regards Keith

Keith - I think your bottom photo is a fantastic match for the photo in post No. 82. Do you have a Google Earth grid for the point where you stood? MG

[tipperary]

Photo in post 82 and the lower in post 88 are very very similar.john

[Gully Ravine]

Keith - I think your bottom photo is a fantastic match for the photo in post No. 82. Do you have a Google Earth grid for the point where you stood? MG

Hi Martin

I didn't mark the position exactly (regrettably), but I can see where my sat nav track ended at the end of our walk over the back of Yeoman's Knoll and around Green Hill when I took the photo. My best estimate of where my photo was taken is:

40 17 21 00 N

26 16 56 84 E

This would be on the edge of the the lower right hand 'corner' of the red ellipse in photo #1 in post 88, standing on the eastern edge of the road. Photo 2 in post #88 is cropped to lose quite a bit of foreground field. I can post the full image if it helps.

Regards

Keith

[Guest]

Keith - I think I know the spot...the road running south from Green Hill cemetery curves as it come off the hill with Yeoman's Knoll on the left (East) as you drive south before the road straightens to run directly south to Azmak Dere. My hire car is shown on the same spot in the photo (taken from a standpoint on Yeoman's Knoll) on post No. 84. That post speculated the viewpoint was further west and also shows where I thought DMG was (incorrectly now, I think)

.....I have pinned your grid ref on the maps below. This is where Munster Sap (the red trench running South crossed the (modern) track/road (again shown on Post No.84). It seems fairly certain to me that you have got the right spot for the Photo "Near Dead Man's Ditch" which shows Yeoman's Knoll on the left. ..So it seems that it is distinctly possible that this photo was taken from Munster Sap, and very close to where Dorset Sap met Munster Sap.

That might suggest that Dead Man's Gully is the small dere now marked by poplar tress that curves East to West about 60 yards (according to GE) to the South. It would make sense as it was a dere /ditch in 1915 and would be a natural place for wounded to crawl into. This puts DMG a lot further North than my previous speculation.....It would coincide with the red trench that runs into the 'A' of Trench A64 on the overlay below. .....Just a thought. MG

[bluedog]

Martin and Keith

I agree with the Lat. / Longs in Post #88 with regard to Dead Mans Gully.

Spent the best part of a day in the area in June with a hand-held GPS and the original

B&W photos that were posted earlier in this thread trying to line up the ridge line

and basically I ended up with the same position.

After much searching in the area it appeared to me that 96 years of erosion and farming

wiped out any trace.

Having said that I will be back again in April , May and June 2012 and part of my time

will be back in that area.

Regards

Peter

[Gully Ravine]

Hi

Martin - you have the spot - just behind your car up the hill towards Green Hill cemetery by about 20m. The area of most interest to me regarding the picture we know as 'near to DeadMan's Gully' is the small triangular area to the west of the current road which runs in a general N:S direction towards Green Hill Cemetery. This area is sunken below the current road and I'm sure I have seen it referred to as a 'quarry' or 'marsh' somewhere, but can't recall where. My current thinking is that this is probably where the original photo was taken from. I have re-overlaid the map on GE and think that the trenches need to go a little 'East' from your post #92.

I agree with Martin that Dead Man's Gully is south of here, but I'm not yet convinced it is the trench suggested in post #92 - but it could be. I have another series of photos that I took standing in what I think (thought?) is Dead Man's Gully. I have limited time this week, but will post as soon as time allows.

Regards Keith

[Guest]

Hi

Martin - you have the spot - just behind your car up the hill towards Green Hill cemetery by about 20m. The area of most interest to me regarding the picture we know as 'near to DeadMan's Gully' is the small triangular area to the west of the current road which runs in a general N:S direction towards Green Hill Cemetery. This area is sunken below the current road and I'm sure I have seen it referred to as a 'quarry' or 'marsh' somewhere, but can't recall where. My current thinking is that this is probably where the original photo was taken from. I have re-overlaid the map on GE and think that the trenches need to go a little 'East' from your post #92.

I agree with Martin that Dead Man's Gully is south of here, but I'm not yet convinced it is the trench suggested in post #92 - but it could be. I have another series of photos that I took standing in what I think (thought?) is Dead Man's Gully. I have limited time this week, but will post as soon as time allows.

Regards Keith

Keith - I know the area reasonably well as I spent a day ferreting around the red triangle area looking for evidence of Munster Sap - I also agree that the trench needs to move slightly East....the match with the distinctive 'christmas cracker' field (the zig-zggy field) which I use as my central ref point is not great in my earlier post. I think few would dispute that you have nailed the 'near Dead Man's Gully' photo. A small mystery (for me at least) solved. Thank you for posting the photo. MG

[Gully Ravine]

I agree the Christmas theme to the western field boundaries (remarkably unchanged over the years) is a good reference point. I also think we are about as close to the location of the photo as we can be without a further visit - good excuse for next year?

But - what of DMG as posed by Krithia in his original post? Based on the whole of this thread - photos, comments, war diary extracts etc etc and some good sleuthing by all) I had come to the conclusion that DMG was south of the area most recently discussed - but this was mainly based on using the skyline from other photos. Now, I'm not so sure. Taking the comments at face value that DMG was 'in no man's land', my estimates were that it had to be one of the ditches / gullies running W:E east of allied trenches (and not a part of the main trench system).

My favourite is the ditch running from 40 17 10 41N, 26 16 54 27E to 40 17 11 22N, 26 16 56 94E. This is now hedgrow, but if you stand in it, it is quite deep and quite wide - much more than it looks on GE or the photo below. There are similar ditches in that area that could also be the spot.

However, Martin's comment that it could be part of the system running off from A62 - A64 is quite compelling. As we have no obvious reference points in the photo in post #1, I'm not sure we will ever be able to locate it 100%.

Good question, though, Steve!

Regards

Keith

[Guest]

Some thoughts on the possible location of DMG...using the Sevki Pasha overlays slightly faded out. I have marked the spot of Keith's vantage point for the photo of Near DMG.... the pins 1,2 and 3 could be possibilities...One of the written accounts refer to sapping forward towards DMG....locations 1 and 2 would fit with my (current) theory that DMG is the existing drainage gully lined by poplar trees.....if it is further south, a location in the vicinity of pin 3 might be a possibility. The Sevki Pasha maps were surveyed after the conflict and are quite detailed, however the trench systems don't always align with the British trench maps. MG

[Guest]

Further thoughts...referencinnd the marked tracks on the British 1:10,000 trench maps

1. Green line - "Near Dead Man's Gully" (as discussed)

2. Orange Line - potential candidate for Dead Man's Gully

3. Blue line - ditto. Note there a building is shown on this line on the British map and the feint traces of this building can be seen on GE grid ref [40°17'15.69"N 26°16'52.81"E] (second image)

.

[Gully Ravine]

Martin

I can't yet persuade myself 100% that this is your 'building' (centre picture) - but the location is close! Taken from the top of Yeoman's Knoll looking approx SW. I think the trees may be too close to the building - maybe the next bigger tree 'left' looking between the poplars is the location?

Keith

[Guest]

Martin

I can't yet persuade myself 100% that this is your 'building' (centre picture) - but the location is close! Taken from the top of Yeoman's Knoll looking approx SW. I think the trees may be too close to the building - maybe the next bigger tree 'left' looking between the poplars is the location?

Keith

Keith - I think we are getting closer. To be honest I don't think I will resolve this in my own mind until I walk the ground again with copies of the original photos, and that is unlikely to happen until next summer. As an aside, I was trawling through the HQ 32nd Inf Bde war diaries and in the bundle was a sketch map of the Hetman Chair area and a typewritten description of the Turkish trench lines based on aerial photos in early August plus a description of the disposition of the Turkish troops based on a Turkish Officer's (POW) description. The combination of these and especially the sketch map indicates that there was definitely an outwork or redoubt beyond the apex of the Hetman Chair trenches i.e. slightly further west than the trench maps would indicate and certainly at least 100 yards NW to NNW from that apex - heading towrads the area we have been discussing. The detail is in the HQ 32nd Bde war diary ahead of their attack in the area - part of the 11th Div War Diaries bundle available on-line.

I need to do more work on this, but I am now certain that there was a reinforced house or redoubt in that area which may well have been abandoned after the actions of the 21st Aug. MG

[bluedog]

Martin

Do you have approx. date for your visit next summer?

I will be there April , May and June

Peter

[Guest]

Martin

Do you have approx. date for your visit next summer?

I will be there April , May and June

Peter

No dates yet fixed... but I am thinking of doing 2 trips as I had to cancel this year due to work load. I will definitely avoid the April crush though.

I wonder if anyone knows when the sunflower crops are sown and when they are harvested? I went in July 2010 when the sunflowers were very tall and obscured many of the views around Hetman Chair, so I would prefer to avoid and period when the crops are high. Thought about August in order to retrace the steps on the same dates and similar conditions of the Suvla Bay landing. Having said that I would be very open to going at the same time as anyone with detailed knowledge. I will avoid the 'guided battlefield tours' as I find them too broad-brushed and (no doubt through time restrictions) not deep enough. Also need to scramble up hills on my own and I am primarily interested in Suvla Bay up to and including Hill 60. My main aims for my next trip:

1. Hetman Chair, Dead Man's Gully research.

2. W Hills and Scimitar Hill - pinpointing the Turkish trench system.

3. The line of advance of the 6th (Pioneer) Bn East Yorks towards Tekke Tepe on 9th August. This will involve going up a few of the possible routes from Sulajik to Tekke Tepe so it will be quite arduous and (I think) may take more than one day.

4. Lines of Advance of the various Bdes of the 10th and 11th Divs 6th-8th August.

MG

[Gully Ravine]

Keith - I think we are getting closer. To be honest I don't think I will resolve this in my own mind until I walk the ground again with copies of the original photos, and that is unlikely to happen until next summer. As an aside, I was trawling through the HQ 32nd Inf Bde war diaries and in the bundle was a sketch map of the Hetman Chair area and a typewritten description of the Turkish trench lines based on aerial photos in early August plus a description of the disposition of the Turkish troops based on a Turkish Officer's (POW) description. The combination of these and especially the sketch map indicates that there was definitely an outwork or redoubt beyond the apex of the Hetman Chair trenches i.e. slightly further west than the trench maps would indicate and certainly at least 100 yards NW to NNW from that apex - heading towrads the area we have been discussing. The detail is in the HQ 32nd Bde war diary ahead of their attack in the area - part of the 11th Div War Diaries bundle available on-line.

I need to do more work on this, but I am now certain that there was a reinforced house or redoubt in that area which may well have been abandoned after the actions of the 21st Aug. MG

What I can't quite get my head round - the GE image shows an 'old' building / ruin, as does the trench map. I have several photos of the area, but the only one that shows a ruined building doesn't have it in a position that matches the location of that on GE. "Need input" as Johnny-Five would say ...

Keith