East Lancashire Division RFA (T)

[brianmorris547]

The Soldier on the right is 1393 later 710566 George Wilkinson of Deane Church Lane, Bolton. He went out to Egypt with the Bolton Artillery in September 1914 and served in Gallipoli and F&F. His son Norman was a friend of my Dad, they were both plumbers at the same firm in Bolton pre WW2. The picture was posted in Images by Steve Ratcliffe. It is also in the collection at the Bolton Artillery Museum which is housed at the Artillery TA Barracks in Bolton.

There is a hospital admission for him MH 106/2008 31 Ambulance Train 23/10/1918 (SW face) showing his Unit as 113 Bde. I downloaded the WD of 113 Bde which was an Army Field Artillery Brigade but no mention. 

Brian

EDIT Steve has revealed that the other standing Soldier is Thomas Shaw. Thomas, 1098 later 710317 was k in a 26/03/1918 serving with A/211 Brigade. The WD records that the Brigade was in the Courcelles, Logeast Wood area south of Arras. There are no reports of his death in the Bolton papers, just a mention in the Family Notices Bolton Evening News 04/04/1918. On the 1911 Census he is shown age 14 as an apprentice moulder in an Iron Foundry.

Steve and I would like to identify the soldier sitting down.

 

 

Edited 19 May , 2022 by brianmorris547
additional info

[brianmorris547]

Another little piece of the jigsaw fitted. The Official History of the Bolton Artillery by B Palin-Dobson records that in September 1916 A/332 Bde (The Bolton Artillery Reserve Brigade) was retrained as a Howitzer Battery and posted to 108 Brigade. The WD of 108 Brigade 09/10/1916 records that a new 4 gun Howitzer Bty (A/108) arrived from England and relieved D/108 in Action. On 13/10/1916 the new Howitzer Battery became C/108. A nominal Roll shows three Bolton Artillery Officers in C/108, Major Ryder and Lts Fairer and Walker. The Brigade became an Army Field Artillery Brigade in March 1917 and my next job is to download the WDs.

I have often wondered what happened to the other Batteries of the original 332 Brigade, which was broken up in March 1917. I found a Pension Record for 1045 later 710278 John Simpson of Bolton who joined 3 East Lancs Brigade in 1913. His Statement of Services shows that he embarked with A/332 on 04/03/1917 and on 11/04/1917 this became C/298 Brigade. I downloaded 298 AFA Brigade and the WD for 12/04/1917 shows that A/332 arrived from the Bethune area, Major Rothwell - Jackson OC (He was a Bolton Artillery Officer). Other Ranks are not named. 

Brian

[Mike HB]

Hello 

My grandfather, Edward Blackburn (710493), was in 332 Bde RFA, B Battery in 1915. When A Bty, noted above, was transferred to France as reinforcements, B Bty became A Bty and then transferred to 298 Bde AFA as their C Battery. My gf was in C Bty until August 1918, when he was wounded in action during an attack on Chuignolles on 25 August 1918, and invalided back to UK.

 

The photo below shows my gf on the left with his best mate, Harry Ashton. I think this was taken in January 1918 when he was on leave.

 

The second photo is, I think, B Battery 332nd in 1915. My gf signed it on the back as being from Bombr E Blackburn (standing, far left) 19th Battery 2/3 East Lancs RFA (which became b/332nd Bde). It was taken at Forest Row camp in Sussex in mid 1915 when the Bde (and the rest of the Division) was training there. I don't know who the other soldiers are, but I assume this was 19th/B battery gunners.

 

 

Mike

[Mike HB]

Here is another postcard. This came with the photos above, but I have no idea who the soldiers are, I suspect it was some of my gf's comrades in B/332nd, since I read somewhere that it wasn't unusual for soldiers to have photos of groups of their friends, even if they themselves weren't featured in the photo. The rear of the postcard shows it was produced by the E Grinstead Photo Co, Railway Approach, so presumably the soldiers were also at Forest Row.

 

Mike

[brianmorris547]

Mike

Great photos. Thanks for posting. The Bolton papers in early 1915 reported that The Bolton Artillery Reserve Brigade (2/3 ELB) was to move from Bolton to Southport and a third line (3/3 ELB) was to be recruited in Bolton. In May 1915 it was reported that 2/3 in Southport were to move to Buxted and further reports were that 2/19 Bty and 2/20 Bty were at Five Ashdown, a village near Buxted, Sussex. The Unit was in St Margaret's Convent according to reports. A photograph of the Officers at Buxted appeared in the papers. In August 1915 it was reported that 2/3 would leave Buxted for Forest Row and early in 1916 that 3/3 would leave Southport for Bettisfield Park, Salop. In March 1916 the Brigades, now proto 332 Brigade, moved to Colchester.

 

I am trying to identify the men of 1/3 ELB who went to Egypt in 1914. There are four photographs of this MM, 1090 later 710313 Harry Greenwood of 188 Morris Green Lane, Bolton on Lives of the First World War. I attach the one showing his MM (courtesy of IWM). His MM Card shows B/211 Bde LG 04/02/1918 and he is mentioned in the November 1917 WDs of 211 Bde and 42 Div A&QMG. His photo and biography appeared in the Bolton Journal 30/11/1917 and he was presented with the Medal by the Mayor in 1918. The medal was awarded for extinguising a fire in an Ammunition Dump.

Edited 21 October , 2020 by brianmorris547
typo

[Mike HB]

Brian

 

Thanks for the additional info re the whereabouts of the 332nd between Aug 1914 and late 1915.

 

Here is another photo, this time of the '20th Bty, 3 East Lancs Bde RFA'. Again from my gf's collection. Date of the photo is unknown, as is the location.  Initially the location looked to be foreign, possibly Egypt. But then why would my gf have this, when he didn't serve there? And by the time the East Lancs Div got there, the 3 ELB would have been 1/3 ELB, since the second line division was forming back in UK?

 

Now I know that my gf was in the Territorials (E Lancs Bde) between 1910 and 1914, I suspect this is the Territorials out on manoeuvres somewhere on the moors, and that he might have been in the 20th Bty, which was based in Bolton. My main reservation is the countryside, which looks rather dry and arid for Lancashire. However, any information that anyone has to confirm or contradict this would be useful!

 

Mike

[brianmorris547]

Mike

The papers of Edward Blackburn in WO 364 show that he was originally 543 of the 3 East Lancs Brigade RFA (TF) and on 07/04/1914 was discharged Time Expired. He was recalled in August. The Bolton papers in June and July 1914 reported on the Annual Camp and live firing which, accoring to the papers in WO 364 for 1140/710351 William Morris was at Redesdale from 27/06/1914 to 11/07/1914 (North Yorkshire). The OC of 20 Bty on Mobilization was Capt H L Rothwell - Jackson and the Brigade moved into the hills above Bolton, around Rivington and then Turton. The picture could be Rivington or Turton but I suspect it was taken at the Annual Camp, possibly 1914. They were equipped with 15 Pdr guns in 1914 and were re equipped with 18 Pdrs in 1916.

Brian

EDIT : RE my earlier post there is a St Margaret's Convent in East Grinstead, and the village near Buxted reported as Five Ashdown is most Likely Five Ash Down. Forest Row is in between Buxted and East Grinstead.

EDIT: On 04/09/1914 the Bolton Evening News reported that Mrs H Clarke of Blackburn Rd had presented 19 Bty with a mascot for the Artillery. It was a bulldog named Castor. There are no reports that Castor went to Egypt so he could well be the dog in the photo. On 01/10/1915 the Bolton Journal had a photograph of 20 Bty 2/3 at Forest Row and on  22/10/1915 a photograph of 2/20 Bty tug of war team, naming them. On 16/06/1916 the BJ had another picture of some of 2/20 Bty. When Bolton library opens again I will get copies.

Edited 27 October , 2020 by brianmorris547
additional info

[Mike HB]

Thanks Brian, at least we might know who the dog is, and this might explain why my gf had the photo - for the battery mascot, not the people. As for the firing photo, it does look more like N Yorkshire, but as my gf had the postcard, I would have expected it to be during his time with the 20th, so maybe they did live firing before April 1914, eg summer camp 1913? I am trying to find out from my cousin, the holder of the photo, whether there's anything written on the reverse.

 

It'll be interesting to see anything the BJ has on activities at Forest Row. 

 

By way of some post war information, here is the menu card and legible signatures (for the most part) for the 'Bolton Artillery Pal's Reunion' in Dec 1938, which my gf attended. The menu looks quite extravagant by my standards!

 

Mike

 

 

[brianmorris547]

Mike

Thanks very much for this. Due to rain in Blackpool golf has been cancelled this morning and I didn't want to get the paintbrush out, so I'll be working on the names this morning. Some leap out e.g. John Nelson Stables (WO 364) and Harry Haslam. Stand by.

Brian

EDIT

I am going through the Medal Rolls so any names I have not found today I will add to later.

W Alf Henderson  ?

T Grime - Poss 1811 Thomas Grime, Served in Egypt and Gallipoli where he was awarded the French Medal Militaire for repairing wires under fire. Came home Time Expired in 1916 and was photographed in the papers receiving his Award from the Mayor. Re enlisted into the Bolton Artillery Reserve Brigades 711501.

H Wilkes - poss 710996 Sgt Herbert Wilkes, poss named in the Bolton Evening News "Rally to the Flag" (which printed the names, addresses and Units of Recruits) on 14/05/1915 under Bolton Artillery.

E Withnell - Poss Edward 720269 (1917 number issued to 42 and 66 Div Ammunition Columns)

T J Wilson - Poss Thomas Jas Wilson 710130.

J N Stables - John Nelson Stables (Sgt Major Wheeler) WO 364 under 710034 but on Rolls as 710153. Pictured in the Bolton Papers 1915 Reserve Brigade Tug of War Team at Forest Row.

H P Ashton - 710058 Sgt Harry P Ashton

W Brooks - Poss William 711342. Poss W Brooks Rally to the Flag 13/10/1915 under Bolton Artillery.

A V Durose - 1297 Albert Durose later 710487. Served in Egypt. Hospital adm 1918 Catterick gassed.

J Brown- Poss Cpl SS J Brown pictured 16/06/1916 in the Bolton Journal with 2/20 Bty. (There was another Bdr J Brown who rescued a Gunner from drowning in the Suez Canal in 1915).

S Berry - Poss 970 Samuel Berry. Served in Egypt. Later 710219. Hospital admission 1918 malaria poss ex Salonica.

Alfred E Tomlinson - Poss 710290. Sgt A Tomlinson pictured 16/06/1916 in BJ with 2/20 Bty.

R Higson - Richard Higson, Rally to the Flag 14/05/1915 under Bolton Artillery. 1994 later 711009. WO 364 Served France, Belgium and Italy. 

C F Whitworth - Charles F Whitworth 186 served in Egypt. Later 710013. MM Card 211 Brigade LG 16/07/1918. Pictured in the Bolton Journal 22/03/1919. Received his Medal at the Town Hall. 

R or A  Smith ?

Herbert or Hubert Ward ? - there was a Lt H H Ward and a Lt Hubert S Holt in the Reserve Brigades 1915 

A Patterson ?

Harry Haslam - Harry Fleetwood Haslam 710584. Pictured in BJ 16/06/1916 as Cpl 2/20 Bty and in BJ 21/02/1919 awarded MSM.

J H Fogg - Poss Joseph Herbert Fogg 710370

W Taylor - Poss Sgt W Taylor pictured BJ 16/06/1916 2/20 Bty

H Leach ? - Poss Harold Leach 480 served in Egypt later QSM 710035.

 

Edited 19 April , 2023 by brianmorris547
additional info

[MaxD]

re the photo.  I'd be going for Larkhill, they are going firing which suggests a range somewhere and the track and the sides look exactly like the chalk on the Plain.

 

MaxD

[Mike HB]

Brian

 

Thanks. The attendees seem to represent the whole of the Bolton Artillery, both first and second lines, so clearly it was a general reunion rather than just my gf's unit. Apart from Harry Ashton none of the names are familiar to me, and in fact there don't seem to be any others from 2/19. I wonder what prompted what was presumably a 20th Anniversary reunion given the looming conflict?

 

Mike

[brianmorris547]

On 23/10/2020 at 16:37, MaxD said:

re the photo.  I'd be going for Larkhill, they are going firing which suggests a range somewhere and the track and the sides look exactly like the chalk on the Plain.

 

MaxD

MaxD

Not sure about Larkhill. The original 20 Bty of 3 East Lancs Brigade went to Egypt in September 1914. The Reserve Brigades of 3 ELB raised in Bolton trained in Southport before moving to Buxted in 1915. 2/20 Bty may have done some live firing at Larkhill in 1915 or 1916 before they became part of 332 Brigade. The Official History of the Bolton Artillery records that in 1916 A/332 moved to Pirbright Common near Bulford to convert to a Howitzer Bty. Pirbright is near to Farnborough but Bulford is near Amesbury and Larkhill. 

I think the photo is more likely to be an Annual Camp. From my earlier post the papers of William Morris show the camp 27/06/1914 to 11/07/1914 was at Redesdale and the Service Record of Isaac Mills 976 later 710224 and RE 443927 show the 1913 camp was 20/07/1913 to 03/08/1913 at Trawsfynndd.

Brian

[MaxD]

T'was but a thought born of years of careering around the ranges at Larkhill (two miles in a straight line from here) and dusting off the chalk.

 

Max

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

MaxD

Not sure about Larkhill. The original 20 Bty of 3 East Lancs Brigade went to Egypt in September 1914. The Reserve Brigades of 3 ELB raised in Bolton trained in Southport before moving to Buxted in 1915. 2/20 Bty may have done some live firing at Larkhill in 1915 or 1916 before they became part of 332 Brigade. The Official History of the Bolton Artillery records that in 1916 A/332 moved to Pirbright Common near Bulford to convert to a Howitzer Bty. Pirbright is near to Farnborough but Bulford is near Amesbury and Larkhill. 

I think the photo is more likely to be an Annual Camp. From my earlier post the papers of William Morris show the camp 27/06/1914 to 11/07/1914 was at Redesdale and the Service Record of Isaac Mills 976 later 710224 and RE 443927 show the 1913 camp was 20/07/1913 to 03/08/1913 at Trawsfynndd.

Brian

 

There's no chalk around Pirbright (stationed there for 2-years), but there is at Bulford (stationed nearby 3-years) just as there is at Larkhill (stationed nearby 8-years), both of which sit on the finest chalk downs in Britain if not Europe.  I'm quite positive that there's no chalk at Redesdale (regularly engaged in field firing nearby at Otterburn), or Trawsfynndd (artillery range closed 1959), and looking at the tracks manner of undulating along the contours that is typical of the area, I agree with Max that the photo was taken between Bulford and Larkhill.  It was quite usual for batteries to travel miles from camp to firing point.  Given the distinctive chalk tracks there really isn't anywhere else that in can be given the movements that you've outlined.

Edited 30 October , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[brianmorris547]

MaxD, Frogsmile

You may well be right, I'm not saying that you are not. Mike's gf was recalled in August 1914 and served with 2/20 in 1915 and 16 at Buxted and Forest Row before going to France. The Battery must have done some live firing during this period and Larkhill seems the obvious place. (My only experience of Larkhill was a FACE conversion course in 1970).

Brian

 

Edited 23 November , 2020 by brianmorris547

[David Porter]

The picture below was taken at Trawsfynydd in May 1914. There are distinct similarities in the writing and placing of the caption with the one Mike posted above.

 

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, David Porter said:

The picture below was taken at Trawsfynydd in May 1914. There are distinct similarities in the writing and placing of the caption with the one Mike posted above.

 

 

It’s a good photo David and shows a battery in line-of-march well.  The style of writing on the bottom of the card is extremely common for real photo post cards of TF undergoing annual training and I think must be connected with a photographer who made his business from such images, but they are not confined to just one area.  There have been similar images posted in the forum from all over.  
Although a similar winding track I don’t believe that it shows chalk down in the way that the subject image does, it’s merely sunbaked stony earth.  A great feature of Salisbury Plain is the microscopic chalk dust that lifts and forms a cloud following any kind of movement and which in photos gives an impression of miasma, you can see it in the first photo but not the second.  It coats every soldier in a fine layer of dust that sticks to sweat and is something that both Max and I have experienced too.  I can’t think of any other training area in Britain that’s like it.

The corrugated tin hut in the middle ground looks quite incongruous and I’m wondering what it is.  Perhaps a building right on the edge of Trawsfynydd Camp. 

Edited 31 October , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[MaxD]

It was the chalk dust (that I mentioned in my post) that swung it to Larkhill for me also.  

 

Max

[Garwood]

There`s a drystone wall on the extreme right of the 1st photo.

[MaxD]

16 hours ago, Garwood said:

here`s a drystone wall on the extreme right of the 1st photo.

Not many of those on the Plain I concede 

 

Max

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, MaxD said:

Not many of those on the Plain I concede 

 

Max

Yes, I can’t think of any around SPTA offhand.  Curious....

Edited 1 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Garwood]

In the first photo,is that an encampment strung out along a valley floor behind and left of the column?Hard to make out .

[Garwood]

Was Trawsfynnyd range all to the east side of Bronaber? Been trying to fit the 2nd photo in with what`s there now on Google Earth .

 

Think I`ve ID`d the 2nd location ,the lead team are about where there is now a cattle grid going up from the holiday village heading up to the east.It now has far more trees growing but all of the tracks are in the same places ,with the hill in the background visible in the 2nd photo.

Edited 1 November , 2020 by Garwood
Add

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Garwood said:

In the first photo,is that an encampment strung out along a valley floor behind and left of the column?Hard to make out .

No, the general perspective indicates that it’s a rock lined track.

Edited 1 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[brianmorris547]

This is the Statement of Services of 669 Dvr John Slater of Bolton, who enlisted into 3 ELB in January 1911. He attended the Annual Camps at Tatton Park and Trawsfynnyd from 30/06/1912 to 14/07/1912 and Dolphinholme ? from 20/08/1911 to 03/09/1911. He went to Egypt in September 1914 and came home in 1916 Time Expired.

His Pension Record is on Ancestry under WO 364 Filmstrip SLA 7736/13429. I have seen this record before because I remember reading that his character was described as Indifferent. I had noticed what I read as Dolphinholme (but I may be wrong) because it is about five miles south east of Lancaster situated in the hills. I can not find any references to a firing range ever being there. 

Brian