John Bernard Shrive

[Stebie9173]

Oliver Lawford Shrive is listed on the Mayor's Roll of Honour as Driver, No. 4471, 2nd "Battalion", Northamptonshire Battery, R.F.A.

The 1st "Battalion" (actually termed Artillery battery) of the Northamptonshire Battery, East Anglian Artillery Brigade, went to France for a couple of weeks very early in 1916 and then later served in Egypt and Palestine from 1916-1919.

Had he served with the 2nd Line Battery of the Northamptonshire Battery for all of the war, then he would have been renumbered in 1917 with a six-digit number beginning 891xxx.

Since these new numbers were issued in sequence, his number would have been issued after Edward Stanley Newell below, but before George Walker. Since there is no possible way he was renumbered in this sequence, then he had probably left the Battery by then.

Edward Stanley Newell Royal Field Artillery 4469 & 891318

George Walker Royal Field Artillery 4472 & 891319

No. 4471 suggests an enlistment date of 15th or 16th September 1914, incidentally.

The Silver War Badge references suggests that he was discharged due to wounds or sickness or the like, which is conistent with the story of him being wounded.

There are a few decent examples of the movements of men in a similar numbering sequence:

Herbert William Merrison

Northamptonshire Battery, RFA, No. 4488

Wessex Brigade, RFA, No. 1793

Renumbered in Wessex Brigade, No. 850873

Enlisted into the Northamptonshire Battery, RFA, 18-9-1914. Numbered 4488.

Transferred to the Wessex Brigade, RFA, No. 1793, 9-12-1914

Posted to 2/2 Hants Battery, 2/1st Wessex Field Artillery Brigade, RFA at Fareham, 10-12-1914

Arrived at Bombay with battery, 4-1-1915

Brigade name changed to 227th Brigade.

Offence on Conduct Sheet at Kirkee, India, 14-5-1917

Posted "overseas" (i.e. from India) on 14-5-1918.

Joined Artillery Base Depot at Havre, France on 18-7-1918

Granted leave from 1st to 30th August 1918.

Posted to 68th Battery, 14th Brigade, 28-8-1918

Harry Goodliffe

Northamptonshire Battery, RFA, No. 4495

Wessex Brigade, RFA, No. 1795

Renumbered in Wessex Brigade, No. 850875

Enlisted into the Northamptonshire Battery, RFA, 19-9-1914. Numbered 4495

Transferred to the Wessex Brigade, RFA, No. 1793, 9-12-1914

To India, 12-12-1914

Posted to 2/2 Hants Battery, 2/1st Wessex Field Artillery Brigade, RFA

Brigade name changed to 227th Brigade.

Arrived in Mesopotamia on 28-8-1917.

To Basra Base Depot.

Awarded British War Medal and Victory Medal.

Posted to 13th Brigade RFA, ??????? (possibly August 1917) and served with 13th Brigade Ammunition Column.

To England, 31-1-1919.

Harry Goodliffe actually appears on the Mayor's Roll of Honour under "Wessex Brigade, RFA, Hants Battery, 2nd "Battalion", but with his Northamptonshire Battery number of 4495 !

Joseph Bernard

Northamptonshire Battery, RFA, No. 4490

Wessex Brigade, RFA, No. 1794

Renumbered in Wessex Brigade, No. 850874

Enlisted into the Northamptonshire Battery, RFA, 18-9-1914. Numbered 4490

Transferred to the Wessex Brigade, RFA, No. 1794, 9-12-1914

To India, 12-12-1914

Posted to 2/2 Hants Battery, 2/1st Wessex Field Artillery Brigade, RFA

Entry on Conduct Sheet at Kirkee, India, 15-12-1915

Brigade name changed to 227th Brigade.

Overseas from India to ??????

Awarded British War Medal and Victory Medal.

Posted to "B" Battery, 215th Brigade RFA, 9-8-1916.

John Vernon Fosbrooke

Northamptonshire Battery, RFA, No. 4502

Wessex Brigade, RFA, No. 1807

Renumbered in Wessex Brigade, No. 850884

Enlisted into the Northamptonshire Battery, RFA, 19-9-1914. Numbered 4502

Transferred to the Wessex Brigade, RFA, No. 1807, 9-12-1914

To India, 12-12-1914

Posted to 2/2 Hants Battery, 2/1st Wessex Field Artillery Brigade, RFA

At Kirkee, India as of 9-12-1915

Brigade name changed to 227th Brigade.

Stayed in India until 1919.

At Kirkee with battery as of early 1919.

Invalided from Bombay with influenza, 10-2-1919

Discharged from 1098th Battery. 227th Brigade RFA.

Awarded British War Medal only.

I would suggest that Oliver Shrive almost certainly went to India with these men, possibly in December 1914, but where he went to once transferred to France, I can't say! presumably he served at Kirkee (227th Brigade seem to have been there for the whole war) until late 1917 or early 1918 before transferring to France &/or Salonika for the final year/months of the war.

The battery seems to have arrived in India on 4th January 1915.

There are also records for Percy Elliott and Lewis Charles Faulkner, that may add more pieces to the puzzle, but I'm ready to fall off the perch now!

Steve.

P.S. Lance-Sergeant Tom Shrive's first wounding was listed in the Times casualty lists of 28th July 1915, and probably relates to a wounding in late June 1915.

[Stebie9173]

Morning Mike.

A further article from the Peterborough Advertsier of October 1915 (sorry, I don't have an exact date...)

33397 Sgt Richard Shrive's medal index card notes that he was discharged to a commission on 6th October 1915.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

A couple of further examples of what seems to be the "detachment of the Peterborough Battery in India".

Percy Elliott

Northamptonshire Battery, RFA, No. 4458

Wessex Brigade, RFA, No. 1790

Renumbered in Wessex Brigade, No. 850870

Enlisted into the Northamptonshire Battery, RFA, 14-9-1914. Numbered 4458

Appointed as acting Bombardier, 14-9-1914

Transferred to the Wessex Brigade, RFA, No. 1790, 9-12-1914.

In hospital with tonsilitis at Poona, 9-9-1915 to 16-9-1915.

Promoted to Bombardier, 15-11-1915

To India, 12-12-1914

Posted to 2/2 Hants Battery, 2/1st Wessex Field Artillery Brigade, RFA

Battery name changed to 1098th Battery of 227th Artillery Brigade.

Promoted Sergeant, 21-5-1917

Overseas from India to Egypt, 2-9-1918

Awarded British War Medal and Victory Medal.

Returned to 1098th Battery, 227th Brigade, 6-1-1919.

Disembodied, 15-12-1919

Lewis Charles Faulkner

Northamptonshire Battery, RFA, No. 4540

Wessex Battery, RFA, No. 1810

Renumbered in Wessex Brigade, No. 850887

Enlisted into the Northamptonshire Battery, RFA, 29-9-1914. Numbered 4540

Transferred to the Wessex Brigade, RFA, No. 1810, 9-12-1914

To India, 12-12-1914

Posted to 2/2 Hants Battery, 2/1st Wessex Field Artillery Brigade, RFA

Brigade name changed to 227th Brigade.

Posted to "B" Battery, 215th Artillery Brigade RFA, 9-8-1916

Overseas from India to Mesopotamia, 5-10-1916

Arrived at Mesopotamia, 13-10-1916

Awarded British War Medal and Victory Medal.

Renumbered 850887 in accordance with ACI 2198 of 1916 at Basra, 8-3-1917

Transferred to 1086th Battery, 215th Brigade, 7-8-1917

Disembodied, 8-5-1919.

The "detachment" of the Peterborough Battery (actually a fairly large scale transfer of men to the Wessex Brigade) certainly appears to have gone to India en-masse in December 1914. The fact that ALL the men I have looked at numbered around this sequence started in the 2nd Line Battery of the Peterborough battery, and transferred to the 2/2 Hampshire Battery of the 2/1st Wessex Field Artillery Brigade, Royal Field Artillery, more than suggests that Oliver Shrive transferred at the same time, too. In India they seem to have been based at Kirkee and from 1916 onwards the men of the battery seem to have been steadily transferred to other units to see active duty. John Fosbrooke, above, appears to have been a notable exception. As you can see he was awarded the British War Medal without the Victory Medal, since he did not serve in an active theatre of war. His Medal card also notes his earlier number of 1807 since that was the number he qualified for the medals with. The men who transferred out to active theatres of war (Mesopotamia, France, etc.) were awarded the "Pair" of British War Medal and Victory Medal. Where they qualified for their medals after the renumbering, only the later 6-digit number is noted on the medal index cards.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Oliver Shrive's entry from the Mayor's Roll:

and the men already noted as transferred to the Wessex Brigade RFA:

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Last post until later today....

Tom Shrive's wounding in 1915 appears, circumstantially based on the other men killed/wounded on the same Times Casualty list, to have been on 5th July 1915.

The men from the list of 28-7-1915:

CSM Bacon, Charles Albert, 6160, 5th Bn. - Killed (Killed in action, 5-7-1915)

Pte. Burdett, Albert G, 16000, 5th Bn., Wounded

Pte. Chubb , Ernest George, 12332, 5th Bn., Wounded (Wounded on 5-7-1915 per Service Record)

L/Sgt. Shrive, Tom, 7614, 5th Bn., Wounded

Pte. Thurland, Arthur, 15509, 5th Bn., Wounded

The 5th Battalion War Diary is very sparse, but at least shows the numbers wounded during that day:

Steve.

[reevemjr]

Last post until later today....

Tom Shrive's wounding in 1915 appears, circumstantially based on the other men killed/wounded on the same Times Casualty list, to have been on 5th July 1915.

The men from the list of 28-7-1915:

CSM Bacon, Charles Albert, 6160, 5th Bn. - Killed (Killed in action, 5-7-1915)

Pte. Burdett, Albert G, 16000, 5th Bn., Wounded

Pte. Chubb , Ernest George, 12332, 5th Bn., Wounded (Wounded on 5-7-1915 per Service Record)

L/Sgt. Shrive, Tom, 7614, 5th Bn., Wounded

Pte. Thurland, Arthur, 15509, 5th Bn., Wounded

The 5th Battalion War Diary is very sparse, but at least shows the numbers wounded during that day:

Steve.

Steve

Thanks. Such an amazing amount of information that shed a lot of light on all four brothers. I am still not able to post pics but will keep trying. I have a pic of Tom Shrive in India and a Belgian award doc for R Shrive which I would like to post.

I will be back soon.

Mike

Reeve

[reevemjr]

Last post until later today....

Tom Shrive's wounding in 1915 appears, circumstantially based on the other men killed/wounded on the same Times Casualty list, to have been on 5th July 1915.

The men from the list of 28-7-1915:

CSM Bacon, Charles Albert, 6160, 5th Bn. - Killed (Killed in action, 5-7-1915)

Pte. Burdett, Albert G, 16000, 5th Bn., Wounded

Pte. Chubb , Ernest George, 12332, 5th Bn., Wounded (Wounded on 5-7-1915 per Service Record)

L/Sgt. Shrive, Tom, 7614, 5th Bn., Wounded

Pte. Thurland, Arthur, 15509, 5th Bn., Wounded

The 5th Battalion War Diary is very sparse, but at least shows the numbers wounded during that day:

Steve.

Steve

Oliver Shrive has a different second name in various documents. It should read Oliver Sawford Shrive. Sawford being Oliver's mother's maiden name (Jane or Janet Sawford)

Mike

[Stebie9173]

A couple more articles on Tom Shrive's wounding with the 5th battalion in July 1915, with additional details of Richard and Oliver:

Peterborough and Hunts Standard 24-7-1915

Peterborough Advertiser 31-7-1915

(The battery where Richard Shrive was instructing was Kinghorn, not Kingshorn, I think)

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

An interesting article in the Kettering Leader about another man wounded on the same day as Tom Shrive:

Now there was a CSM hit and killed on that day, so the CSM referred to is probably 6160 Charles Albert Bacon but since the letter implies that the group survived it may even be Tom Shrive being referred to. The "other man" hit, being not named is a choice of three from 16000 Pte. Albert George Burdett, Pte. 12332 Ernest George Chubb, or Tom Shrive.

Anyway, it gives an idea of what was happening that day....

Steve.

[reevemjr]

An interesting article in the Kettering Leader about another man wounded on the same day as Tom Shrive:

Now there was a CSM hit and killed on that day, so the CSM referred to is probably 6160 Charles Albert Bacon, but since the letter implies that the group survived it may even be Tom Shrive being referred to. The "other man" hit, being not named is a choice of three from 16000 Pte. Albert George Burdett, Pte. 12332 Ernest George Chubb, or Tom Shrive.

Anyway, it gives an idea of what was happening that day....

Steve.

Steve

This is a very interesting article which seems to confirm what we know.

I have checked on the Commonwealth War Graves Site but unfortunately can find no reference to these men, which of course only means they may not be recorded because they survived the war.

Can you confirm the date of the newspaper article. Is it the 28 July or 27th September. The article states on the 5th inst.

I checked for the CSM 6160 Charles Albert Bacon but unfortunately there is no reference to him on a memorial or in the CWGC web site.

I have a photograph of Jack Shrives parents grave from Oundle Cem. Stoke Road, Oundle where Jack is commemorated. If you would like a copy I can post it.

Mike

[Stebie9173]

It's 16th July 1915, Mike.

Company Sergeant Major Bacon is here:

Name: BACON, CHARLES ALBERT

Initials: C A

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Company Serjeant Major

Regiment/Service: Northamptonshire Regiment

Unit Text: 5th Bn.

Age: 34

Date of Death: 05/07/1915

Service No: 6160

Additional information: Husband of Olive B. Bacon, of 27A, Vauxhall St., Plymouth.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 7.

Memorial: PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=874080

His appearance on Ploegsteert Memorial suggests one of three things - 1) his death was devastating enough to leave no body, or 2) his body could not be brought back to the British lines for burial, or 3) his battlefield grave was later lost.

There were only 4 Company Sergeant Majors in a battalion of 1,000 men so a reference to the CSM strongly suggests it was CSM Bacon, unless there is a very unlikely coincidence here, or there was a mix up. The only reason I say that it might be Tom Shrive wounded, is that we know he was hit in the thigh, that it was more than likely on the 5-7-1915 that he was wounded, and that the article reads as if all three men survived.

CSM Bacon had a short obituary in the Northampton Mercury of 23-7-1915, but it has no extra details regarding the incident of his death:

Incidentally, Arthur John Thurland was only 16 when wounded (he lied that he was 19 instead of 15 when he enlisted), and was discharged as under-age soon after his wounding. He re-enlisted into the Navy and served until 1919 seeing duty in Spain and India. Amusingly, he once more lied about his age to the Navy. From DocumentsOnline (Naval Registers of Service) : "Thurland, Arthur John, Official Number: J65465, Place of Birth: Kettering, Northamptonshire, Date of birth 18 November 1895 {should be 1898}"

Late edit: Tom Shrive's enlistment date lies between 9th and 18th January 1905. I believe that the "Balhousie" reference is actually Dalhousie?

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Jullundur and Dalhousie from Encarta Maps.

The 1st battalion Northamptonshire Regiment were based at Jullundur from November 1903 to March 1908 when they moved to Poona (modern Pune, near Bombay/Mumbai). The men at Dalhousie could have been there on a short term duty, or there could have been a detachment based there, though the regimental History does not mention any detachment at Dalhousie at all. I have references of men arriving at Dalhousie on 4-5-1906, but it is a rather small sample, so I couldn't base a definitive opinion on which was the case...

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

John Bernard Shrive name appears in the Peterborough Advertiser of 5-1-1918 on the Roll of Honour of men serving from Westwood Works - which is actually Baker Perkins, not Brotherhoods.

At the outbreak of WW1 it was named "WERNER, PFLEIDERER & PERKINS LTD" but changed it's name to "PERKINS ENGINEERS LTD"* for obvious reasons... The Pfleiderer family changed their name to Pelmore.

* Not to be confused with FRANK Perkins Limited, also of Peterborough.

See:

http://www.westwoodworks.net/

http://www.bphs.net/

Steve.

[reevemjr]

John Bernard Shrive name appears in the Peterborough Advertiser of 5-1-1918 on the Roll of Honour of men serving from Westwood Works - which is actually Baker Perkins, not Brotherhoods.

At the outbreak of WW1 it was named "WERNER, PFLEIDERER & PERKINS LTD" but changed it's name to "PERKINS ENGINEERS LTD"* for obvious reasons... The Pfleiderer family changed their name to Pelmore.

* Not to be confused with FRANK Perkins Limited, also of Peterborough.

See:

http://www.westwoodworks.net/

http://www.bphs.net/

Steve.

Steve

Thanks for the mass of info, it is really helping. I have a photo of Jack Shrive. He is very young in the photo and does not look happy.Probably he had to stand still for quarter of an hour.

It was always understood in the family that Jack lied about his age to get into the Army and as soon as he got in he was sent to East Africa where he was killed shortly after his arrival.However, this is not the whole story, one of your newspaper cuttings states that he had been in France for 8 months. So by some standards he was trained and battle or at least Front hardened. When I looked at the criteria for men joining the 25th Royal Fusiliers going to East Africa, one point was that they had to be at least 24 while Jack was not. He must have convinced, or lied to get in but how he could without producing his Army papers I do not know. Probably a blind eye was turned on his application. Many men were over the age limit and some were deserters from other regiments just so they could join this group going to Africa.

It appears that Jack did not go in the first troops dispatched but must have gone later in May or June. It is true he was not long there before he was killed. I have been unable to find out what ship he went out on or the exact date or the location in France during the 8 months after his enlistment.

Mike

[reevemjr]

John Bernard Shrive name appears in the Peterborough Advertiser of 5-1-1918 on the Roll of Honour of men serving from Westwood Works - which is actually Baker Perkins, not Brotherhoods.

At the outbreak of WW1 it was named "WERNER, PFLEIDERER & PERKINS LTD" but changed it's name to "PERKINS ENGINEERS LTD"* for obvious reasons... The Pfleiderer family changed their name to Pelmore.

* Not to be confused with FRANK Perkins Limited, also of Peterborough.

See:

Steve

I have just found this in my records. John Bernard Shrive Private 42209

From: Joan Mary Reeve, daughter of Richard 'Dick' Shrive to her son Michael.

According to my mother Jack (John Bernard) Shrive was supposed to have been 16 when he gave a false age, and joined the army.

His mother was frantic when she heard. She had Tom, Oliver,and Dick in the war 'Army'. Ted was on the farm now there was Jack.

Oliver went to Salonica where he was wounded by a machine gunbullet in the hand. This injury caused him difficulties for the rest of his life. Especially when he was basket making. A trade he had learned from his father.

Whether Jack was as young as mum's part of the family believed is open to doubt. She once told me that Jack was young for his age, and of a religious frame of mind. So this may have contributed to the idea that he joined up early. The impression gained from my conversations was that Jack was a impressionable young man who was protected by his family as the youngest ,because of his immaturity.

Having so many brothers in the Army, and the general atmosphere of war must have some effect on him. Mum said he joined up because some woman in the village the family knew came up to him and gave him a white feather. Jack was upset by this, and joined up. The family never forgave her for this act of stupidity.

Jack was the baby of the family and his joining up and early death effected them all.

Jack's date of enlistment would probably settle it. I will try to get his medal card.

Mike

[Stebie9173]

An interesting story, Mike. A lot of young lads must have been pushed into joining the Army before their time. Thanks for sharing it.

I've just had a look at the Birth Registers and Jack's birthregistration is almost certainly:

Name: John Bernard Shrive

Year of Registration: 1894

Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun

District: Oundle

County: Huntingdonshire, Northamptonshire

Volume: 3b

Page: 222

which means he was twenty when the war broke out, and though a fair bit younger than his brothers - Richard was the next youngest and three years older - he was certainly old enough to join up.

Here is his Medal Card. It doesn't give much away but the medal roll books that the Medal card refers to is very good for the Royal fusiliers as it shows both battalions served with overseas AND the dates a man served overseas with them.

Steve.

P.S. I see you have got the hang of posting pictures!

[reevemjr]

An interesting story, Mike. A lot of young lads must have been pushed into joining the Army before their time. Thanks for sharing it.

I've just had a look at the Birth Registers and Jack's birthregistration is almost certainly:

Name: John Bernard Shrive

Year of Registration: 1894

Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun

District: Oundle

County: Huntingdonshire, Northamptonshire

Volume: 3b

Page: 222

which means he was twenty when the war broke out, and though a fair bit younger than his brothers - Richard was the next youngest and three years older - he was certainly old enough to join up.

Here is his Medal Card. It doesn't give much away but the medal roll books that the Medal card refers to is very good for the Royal fusiliers as it shows both battalions served with overseas AND the dates a man served overseas with them.

Steve.

P.S. I see you have got the hang of posting pictures!

Steve

Getting "Pic happy" now.

This is Jack's father and mother's grave in Stoke Road Cemetary Oundle. Also in the Cemetary are his grandfather (paternal), grandmother. His grandfather's brother and a brother of his mother. Quite a collection.

In loving memory of William Thomas Shrive Died July 6, 1932 aged 77 years-

Also of John Bernard Shrive, killed in action at Nyargao, East Africa – October 16^th, 1917

In the midst of life we are in death

Also Jane beloved wife of William Thomas Shrive died March 31^st 1838 – Aged 81 Years.

Mike

[Stebie9173]

I've had a quick look at service records for similar numbers in the Royal Fusiliers and the date of enlistment appears to be June 1916.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

This is interesting....

James William Laws, number GS/42205, of 62 Huntly Grove, Peterborough - also on the Westwood Works Roll of Honour:

He is described on his Attestation papers as an Engineers fitters labourer. He attested under the Derby Scheme on 11-12-1915, went onto the Army Reserve on 12-12-1915 (returning to his job at Perkins, presumably) and was called up on 23-6-1916. Since he was age 32 and married, he probably wouldn't have been in the same Derby Scheme call-up group, which makes it a bit odd that they were called up at the same time...

He was posted to the 6th Battalion Royal Fusiliers and embarked overseas to France on 29-9-1916, being posted to the 22nd Battalion Royal Fusiliers from the 30-9-1916. He returned to England on 4-3-1917 due to illness and was discharged on 9-6-1917.

Steve.

[SteveE]

It appears that Jack did not go in the first troops dispatched but must have gone later in May or June. It is true he was not long there before he was killed. I have been unable to find out what ship he went out on or the exact date or the location in France during the 8 months after his enlistment.

Mike

Jack first served overseas in France/Flanders with 20th Battalion Royal Fusiliers from 18th October 1916 to 22nd April 1917. He next served overseas with the 25th RF, possibly after suffering illness or after being wounded with the 20th, and served overseas with them from 23rd July 1917 until his death at Nyangao on 18th October 1917.

The date of 23rd July 1917 suggests he went out with a reinforcement draft* for the 25th Battalion aboard the "Corinthic" which arrived in Durban 29th August 1917. The troops transhipped there and left Durban aboard the "Princess" on 11th September arriving at Lindi on the 18th where they joined up with the rest of the battalion.

*This draft was raised from the 6th Battalion RF in Dover, so I assume Jack's service also included a spell 'at home' with the 6th Battalion, sandwiched between his two spells of overseas service.

Here is his Medal Card. It doesn't give much away but the medal roll books that the Medal card refers to is very good for the Royal fusiliers as it shows both battalions served with overseas AND the dates a man served overseas with them.

Medal Roll is held at the NA under reference WO329/766.

Regards

Steve

[SteveE]

Medal Roll details....

[Stebie9173]

Here is John Bernard Shrive being mentioned in an article in the Peterborough and Hunts Standard of 1-7-1916 concerning volunteers in the Derby Scheme being called up:

The "Friday" referred to is the 23rd June 1916.

The men called up on that day all went into the Royal Fusiliers (presumably all to the 6th (Reserve) battalion):

H W Marsh, 9 South View Terrace, Walton - Henry Walter Marsh, GS/42192 Royal Fusiliers per 1918 Absent Voters

F Ramsey, 111 Wellington Street - Frederick Ramsey, GS/42208 26th Battalion Royal Fusiliers per 1918 Absent Voters

J B Shrive, 30 Westwood St. - John Bernard Shrive, GS/42209 Royal Fusiliers

J W Laws, 62 Huntly Grove - James William Laws, GS/42205 Royal Fusiliers per Service Records.

The fact that James William Laws (age 38, married - Group 43 - due for call-up on 13-6-1916) and John Bernard Shrive (age 22, single - Group 4 - due for call-up on 20-1-1916) were called up at the same time from Westwood Works suggests to me that their employer had appealed against their call-up (not forgetting that they had already recently volunteered themselves), and then both were called up when an Appeals Tribunal sat regarding their cases. I suspect that it is more likely that the employer brought the case for Appeal (bearing in mind they both were then called up at the same time), rather than the men themselves.

(Marsh and Ramsey are not on the Westwood Works Roll of Honour, by the way).

See here for notes on the Derby Scheme:

http://www.gordonhighlanders.carolynmorris...ecruitment.htm/

As a follow up to the Westwood Works link I posted above, J B Shrive is mentioned here:

http://www.westwoodworks.net/TheRollCall/s.htm

(He may have two entries but one says John H "Jack" Shrive, so it may or may not be him - there is a gallery pictrure of an older John Shrive so thsi may be that man.)

WP&P being Werner, Pfleiderer and Perkins...

Steve.

[reevemjr]

Here is John Bernard Shrive being mentioned in an article in the Peterborough and Hunts Standard of 1-7-1916 concerning volunteers in the Derby Scheme being called up:

The "Friday" referred to is the 23rd June 1916.

The men called up on that day all went into the Royal Fusiliers (presumably all to the 6th (Reserve) battalion):

H W Marsh, 9 South View Terrace, Walton - Henry Walter Marsh, GS/42192 Royal Fusiliers per 1918 Absent Voters

F Ramsey, 111 Wellington Street - Frederick Ramsey, GS/42208 26th Battalion Royal Fusiliers per 1918 Absent Voters

J B Shrive, 30 Westwood St. - John Bernard Shrive, GS/42209 Royal Fusiliers

J W Laws, 62 Huntly Grove - James William Laws, GS/42205 Royal Fusiliers per Service Records.

The fact that James William Laws (age 38, married - Group 43 - due for call-up on 13-6-1916) and John Bernard Shrive (age 22, single - Group 4 - due for call-up on 20-1-1916) were called up at the same time from Westwood Works suggests to me that their employer had appealed against their call-up (not forgetting that they had already recently volunteered themselves), and then both were called up when an Appeals Tribunal sat regarding their cases. I suspect that it is more likely that the employer brought the case for Appeal (bearing in mind they both were then called up at the same time), rather than the men themselves.

(Marsh and Ramsey are not on the Westwood Works Roll of Honour, by the way).

See here for notes on the Derby Scheme:

http://www.gordonhighlanders.carolynmorris...ecruitment.htm/

As a follow up to the Westwood Works link I posted above, J B Shrive is mentioned here:

http://www.westwoodworks.net/TheRollCall/s.htm

(He may have two entries but one says John H "Jack" Shrive, so it may or may not be him - there is a gallery pictrure of an older John Shrive so thsi may be that man.)

WP&P being Werner, Pfleiderer and Perkins...

Steve.

Steve

Thanks again. This and the other information presents a different slant on the 'family stories'. Just two things, how do I get to see the SWB and find out the date of his wounding. I have put together a few casualties and death from the web which point to the period 9th April to after the 19th April, but of course a casualty can occur at any time. I looked on the National Archives site but could not find reference to SWB under any the various names used. Does this mean a visit to Kew? One other on the service record it seems that he did indeed go to the 6th Bat. at Dover between his service with the 20th and 25th Bats. But what do 1(a) and 5(a) against each period mean on the Service record. No doubt it is something meaningful.

I have managed to get photos of both ships mentioned and one of the The transit camp, Congella, Durban 1917 (Lines of bell tents). Thanks for the guidance. The pic is of Jane or Janet and William Thomas 'Tom' Shrive & John Bernard SHRIVE about 1903c at Oundle

Mike

Steve

Thanks again. This and the other information presents a different slant on the 'family stories'. Just two things, how do I get to see the SWB and find out the date of his wounding. I have put together a few casualties and death from the web which point to the period 9th April to after the 19th April, but of course a casualty can occur at any time. I looked on the National Archives site but could not find reference to SWB under any the various names used. Does this mean a visit to Kew? One other on the service record it seems that he did indeed go to the 6th Bat. at Dover between his service with the 20th and 25th Bats. But what do 1(a) and 5(a) against each period mean on the Service record. No doubt it is something meaningful.

I have managed to get photos of both ships mentioned and one of the The transit camp, Congella, Durban 1917 (Lines of bell tents). Thanks for the guidance. The pic is of Jane or Janet and William Thomas 'Tom' Shrive & John Bernard SHRIVE about 1903c at Oundle

Mike

[SteveE]

how do I get to see the SWB and find out the date of his wounding.

<snip>

what do 1(a) and 5(a) against each period mean on the Service record. No doubt it is something meaningful.

Mike

If I understand you correctly you won't see a SWB for J. B. Shrive as he didn't qualify for one, the SWB (Silver War Badge) was awarded to men who were discharged from the armed forces which 'J. B.' unfortunately wasn't. If, and it is only if, he was wounded then the 20th Royal Fusiliers attack south-east of Heninel on April 16th appears to be the most likely place. Geoff's Search Engine shows that there are 70 20th Battalion men remembered on CWGC who died on that day and there would obviously have been more wounded.

The 1(a) and 5(a) are Theatre codes as recorded on the Medal Index cards and Medal Rolls themselves, 1(a) = France & Belgium and 5(a) = East Africa, Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia.

Regards

Steve

[reevemjr]

All

Thank you to everybody who have helped with this topic.So many gaps in Jack's life have been filled in and so many of the family stories found to have some small element of truth in them. Still more information to find and avenues to explore. If I can find the names of those who went out on the second draft to East Africa I am sure that the picture will become clearer. As I find out more I will continue posting. I have a aunt who is in her 80s who is particularly interested having heard bits of the stories from her parents so the images have sparked her memory into action.

I hope I have added something as well. Thanks especially Steve.

Mike Reeve