La Polka- Vierstraat Line

[dfaulder]

Topic was "La Polka (Farm?) / Where is it?"

I am trying to reconstruct a battle ground and have (from 1/4 Y&L WD 26/4/1918) a reference to:

the Bde would at the same time push forward under a barrage to the LA POLKA-VIERSTRAAT LINE and occupy it.

I can find Vierstraat on current maps (and thanks to this forum have some extracts of Trench Maps with Vierstraat (both the road and the settlement) on them). However I cannot get a fix on La Polka - Google searching suggest that it was a farm (I might guess on Kriekstraat (Cheepside Rd)?) - possibly an Allies location name rather than anything the Belgiums would recognise. Or possibly it has gone througn a Ypres > Ieper type relanguaging.

Anyone know?

TIA

David

[Neil Mackenzie]

David.

I have a map showing the La Polka Estaminet just south of Oosttaverne (which is about 3 miles from Vierstraat as the crow flies) on the road running south east from the Oosttaverne crossroads. Unfortunately this is the edge of my map (The Ypres League Map of the Salient) and I cannot see any farm of that name - but presumably it is nearby.

Neil

[Neil Mackenzie]

David.

Just to complicate matters!

Oosttaverne is to the East South East of Vierstraat.

The modern map shows an area called 'Polka' at the crossroads at Kemmel which is to the south of Vierstraat. The old map I have doesn't go that far south so I cannot say what it was called at the time of the Great War.

So we are not really any further forward.

Sorry.

Neil

[frie]

Hello,

Polka at Kemmel was always called the Polka .Even before the war. The Kemmel Polka (farm) was Britisch

There was a Polka estaminet (close to Oosttaverne, but not at Oosttaverne crossroads) in Wijtschate but this was German.

[dfaulder]

Hello,

Polka at Kemmel was always called the Polka .Even before the war. The Kemmel Polka (farm) was Britisch

There was a Polka estaminet (close to Oosttaverne, but not at Oosttaverne crossroads) in Wijtschate but this was German.

Thanks to all. Looking at the layout of the battle ground, I think Vierstraat to La Polka has to refer to the Kemmel one not the Oosttaverne one. Looking at an extract of a Trench map (PathstoGlory.co.uk) I see that there was a La Polka Camp in the East quadrant of the Kemmel cross-roads that Niel mentioned.

Using the trench map extract sent to me by Croonaert (on a previous thread), I have a better view of the battle ground (In Google Earth - Vierstraat to La Polka Rd in Purple running left to right):

The various locations are also on Google Maps towards the end of the list of locations.

Many thanks to all including those on the thread in the technology forum. Comments or enhancements welcome.

David

[roel22]

Unbelievable. The purple line in Google Maps shows same the trench my German gr-grandfather was killed in action may 14th 1918. The information is very valuable to my own research. So a big thank you, David!

The point where the april 26th attack took place is very near -or even at- the location of Suffolk cemetery. The farm next to it is owned by a 94(!) year old farmer. He retired only a few years ago, but still grows his own vegetables and tends his garden.

I interviewed him last summer. Early 1920, as a 6 year old boy, he and his family were among the first to return to this then totally devestated area. He's been living next to Suffolk cemetery since.

Roel

[dfaulder]

Unbelievable. The purple line in Google Maps shows same the trench my German gr-grandfather was killed in action may 14th 1918. The information is very valuable to my own research. So a big thank you, David!

The point where the april 26th attack took place is very near -or even at- the location of Suffolk cemetery. The farm next to it is owned by a 94(!) year old farmer. He retired only a few years ago, but still grows his own vegetables and tends his garden.

I interviewed him last summer. Early 1920, as a 6 year old boy, he and his family were among the first to return to this then totally devestated area. He's been living next to Suffolk cemetery since.

Roel

Roel

Glad to be of help - however unintentionally (which is often the way!). The image below (using Croonaert's image again) probably gives a Central Power's view of the same ground which may be of more help. Note that I have Google maps multiplying altitude by 3 - without which you see very little in this area other than a Mount Kemmel pimple and a Mont Noir pimple (far distant left I think)!

Thanks also for the information about the Suffolk cemetery - I suspect that there is a moderate chance that my GF is one of the unknowns in that cemetery. Has your research turned up any detail about what the Germans did with respect to the English dead left in this area after they had repulsed the Allies' attack - all that my researches have revealed is a letter to my GM saying that "they were unable to bring Harold's body back"?

David

[roel22]

David, I have the diary of my gr-grandfather regiment, but not a word about where soldiers -German or Allied alike- were buried.

I do know my gr-grandfathers body was brought in from no mans land by his best friend and buried in a massgrave. I have reasons to believe this massgrave was in a disused part of the trench which you have marked on google Maps.

Assuming this is correct, there's a -small- chance Allied casualties were buried there as well. Apart from Suffolk and Kemmel no. 1, I have never found a trace of any other cemetery in this area. With enemy machine guns nearby, trenches were pretty much the only locations where soldiers could bury their fallen comrades without being shot at themselves.

regards

Roel

[dfaulder]

>><<I have reasons to believe this massgrave was in a disused part of the trench which you have marked on google Maps.

Assuming this is correct, there's a -small- chance Allied casualties were buried there as well. Apart from Suffolk and Kemmel no. 1, I have never found a trace of any other cemetery in this area. With enemy machine guns nearby, trenches were pretty much the only locations where soldiers could bury their fallen comrades without being shot at themselves.>><<

Roel,

Thanks, I am not familiar with German "in the field" burial practices - I seem to remember reading that the French would often bury people in the trench walls.

There are two other CWGC cemeteries that I have seen marked in the immediate area. The Google Earth image below (same land marks - but the trench map overlay removed) shows four (small purple markers):

The Suffolk Cemetery is the one a little North of my Kriekstraat (Cheepside) Road Marker

Kemmel No 1 is just South East of the Marker for 1/4th Y&L battalion headquarters

In addition:

Klein Vierstraat is close by a little south of West of the Bn HQ

Godezonne Farm is south of the SW end of the "Blue Line"

Presumably there are some German Cemetaries in the area - or did they do more concentration post war?

David

[roel22]

Completely forgot about Godezonne and Kleine Vierstraat!

No German cemeteries in the area though, apart from some -mainly unidentified- burials in British cemeteries. Of those the roughly 100 German graves in Kemmel no. 1 are most intriguing to me: about a 100 metres from where my gr-grandfather died, and nothing is known about when those casualties were buried there!

All other German graves around Kemmel were transferred to the Kameradengrab at Langemark between 1955 and 1957.

regards

Roel

[roel22]

Going back to your question about La Polka, David -after all this is YOUR thread!- I'm sure the La Polka-Vierstraat line is the present day Ieperstraat. Cheapside (the Kriekstraat, as you say) was the line left of the Ieperstraat and was attacked when the Germans, coming from the Wijtschaete-area, pushed on.

I've added a pic of a modern map showing La Polka (sorry for the poor quality...)

Regards

Roel

[dfaulder]

Roel,

Thanks for your confirmation - yes I agree that selecting the "Kemmel" La Polka gives a Vierstraat to La Polka line that is oriented in a direction that is at right angles to what I understood to be the general direction of the German advance. The "Oosttaverne" La Polka would give a line parrallel to the advance and I don't think that an outflanking attack was contemplated by the Allies.

Thanks for the modern-day map that shows the La Polka where PathsOfGlory.co.uk's trench map extract has La Polka Camp. Interestingly the Ieperstraat on your map shows as Kemmelstraat and (North of Vierstraat crossroads) as Kemmelseweg on Google, whilst there is a(nother) Ieperstraat on Google (the N365) much further east. But we are agreed on the actual line!

I note your feelings about Kemmel No 1 and the German graves there. I have a similar gut feeling that although my GF is commemorated at Tyne Cott (and my father always used to talk about his father dying in the mud of "Passion-dale"), his remains do not lie "in the mud" (not even near Kriekstraat where the German MGs were). I suspect that after the war his unidentified remains were recovered and lie in one of the "known unto God" British graves, or possibly if he was temporarily buried by the Germans in a trench mass-grave, in a "known unto God" German grave. Whilst I have not researched the recovery practices, I cannot see the British recovering bodies from this battle-field and taking them off to somewhere like Tyne Cott when there are four British Cemetaries close by.

I am currently trying to do an approximate reconciliation of those with the 1/4th Y&L who died that day and have no known grave with the number of British "unknowns" in the local cemeteries.

David

[roel22]

The decision where to bury a recovered body wasn't a matter of finding the nearest cemetery (what one would suspect), but of which cemetery was open for reburials at the time the body/grave was found. This could turn out to be one miles away.

Also it isn't certain who was responsible for the reburials after 1918. The Kemmel-region was mostly covered by the French army (who had fought there side by side with the British).

Still, if your grandfather was with the 1/4th Y&L he may have ended up at Suffolk Cemetery. I quote CWGC:

"This cemetery was begun in March and April 1915 by the 2nd Suffolks. Apart from one burial made in November 1917, the cemetery was not used again until October 1918 when the 38th Labour Group buried men killed during the German advance the previous April, all but two of whom belonged to the 1st/4th and 1st/5th York and Lancasters. At this time, it was called Cheapside Cemetery. Suffolk Cemetery contains 47 First World War burials, eight of them unidentified."

Roel

[frie]

Roel,

Your map is out of date for already 10 years...

I will post a new map... (On your map there are 2 Ieperstraat.... one in Kemmel and one in Wijtschate. Names of roads changed..

[dfaulder]

Roel,

This is the most likely hypothesis (although I note your comment about dependency on which cemetaries were open - although the Suffolk does not look as if it was "lacking space"). Using the hut-six.co.uk search engine I think 32 were killed that day whilst with the 1/4th. CWGC data gives information which could be summarised as follows:

01 in GODEZONNE FARM CEMETERY

01 in KLEIN-VIERSTRAAT BRITISH CEMETERY

11 in SUFFOLK CEMETERY

01 in WULVERGHEM-LINDENHOEK ROAD

14 Knowns in Total

01 on PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

17 on TYNE COTT MEMORIAL

18 Unknowns in Total

So there are 18 Unknowns and I know that there are 11 known 1/4ths in the Suffolk Cemetery. The other 3 are elsewhere. (but see later comments about WD and SDGW data)

The CWGC data that you quote seems to imply a combined total of 46 Y&L (1/4th and 1/5th) burials. However, I need to understand why they started the cemetery in April 1915, but apparently left it unused until a single burial in November 1917. That data does not look quite right.

It would seem that the 8 unknowns are either 1/4 or 1/5 Y&L, but until I get my mind around the 1/5th data (possibly as above), I do not know how many of the 18 are accounted for by the Suffolk Cemetery - and even then I may have to make some large assumptions.

In addition I need to reconcile the 32 above with the number reported in the Battalion War Diary:

4 Officers (plus 1 reported missing), and 17 OR Killed (plus 9 reported missing) - total 21 killed. Presumably the CWGC data includes people who DoW received in previous actions. In addition the analysis of the CWGC data by rank does not easily reconcile with the War Diary:

01 Captain

01 2nd Lt

02 Officers in Total

03 Corporals

05 Lance Corporals

22 Privates

30 ORs in Total

Summary data I have been given from SDGW (battalion data not complete) also needs reconciling:

5 Officers (2nd Lts Ambler, Beck, Gosling, Penrose, and Lt Faulder) compared to the WD's

4 Officers (2nd Lts McArdle, Penrose, Lt Bradbury, Capt Faulder), 2nd Lt Beck Missing.

ORs 29 per SDGW - 30 per analysis of CWGC data above

SDGW Total of 34 compared to 32 per CWGC.

I don't think this is going to be easy! Any suggestions welcomed.

David

[Neil Mackenzie]

I think Suffolk Cemetery was started yesterday 93 years ago with the burials of H Tricker and T Rush on 20 March 1915. CWGC has 2nd Lt Schroder in this cemetery as kia on 15th March but this is incorrect based on the war diary and his death certificate and he was actually killed on 23/24 March. After a number of burials in April/May 1915 the cemetery was not apparently used until except once in 1917 to bury W Millard of the SLI.

2nd Lt PP McArdle is commemorated on Tyne Cot Memorial but the Y&L is his secondary regiment according to CWGC and he is listed under 1/2nd Cheshire Regiment.

2nd Lt E Ambler is in Suffolk Cemetery and F Gosling is in Klein Vierstraat - not sure why they would not be included in the War Diary, any chance they are listed a day or two before/after?

Bradbury is presumably Lieutenant TP Bradbury commemorated on Tyne Cot memorial and listed on CWGC under 7th Bn Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Regiment).

Neil

[dfaulder]

I think Suffolk Cemetery was started yesterday 93 years ago with the burials of H Tricker and T Rush on 20 March 1915. CWGC has 2nd Lt Schroder in this cemetery as kia on 15th March but this is incorrect based on the war diary and his death certificate and he was actually killed on 23/24 March. After a number of burials in April/May 1915 the cemetery was not apparently used until except once in 1917 to bury W Millard of the SLI.

Thanks for this information - prompts me to dig a bit and discover the CWGC "Cemetery reports" button - "reports" did not sound like a roll of those in the cemetery and I had never clicked on that link! Have not yet found a way to get Geoff's search engine to search on Cemetery as well as everything else! (Why shouldn't I expect it to be able to do that? - it seems to be able to do everything else!)

2nd Lt PP McArdle is commemorated on Tyne Cot Memorial but the Y&L is his secondary regiment according to CWGC and he is listed under 1/2nd Cheshire Regiment.

2nd Lt E Ambler is in Suffolk Cemetery and F Gosling is in Klein Vierstraat - not sure why they would not be included in the War Diary, any chance they are listed a day or two before/after?

Bradbury is presumably Lieutenant TP Bradbury commemorated on Tyne Cot memorial and listed on CWGC under 7th Bn Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Regiment).

Yes this is what my researches are showing.

McArdle was posted (on 7/4/1918) from the 4th Entrenching Bn (with my GF) to the 2/4th Y&L - There is no record of them turning up at the 2/4th, so either it was a mistake or there was a later reposting. McArdle is shown as joining 1/4th on 21/4/1918 and my GF, Penrose and Beck on 22/4/1918 - per the WD. The Y&L Archives officer (Karl Noble) however tells me that my GF showed on the roll of the 1/4th on 6/4/1918. These missing days are on my "to do" list.

Ambler and Gosling are listed as 1/5th and 5th Y&L respectively (CWGC - SDGW is silent as to battalion) so are probably red herrings for my investigations (other than helping account for "known" graves). No signs of them in the 1/4th WD the few days either side - so I suspect that they were serving with other Battalions.

Bradbury is as you think 7th DOW WRR, but is listed in the 1/4th WD. (The WRR was nearby - their Lt Col Brierley walked across to see my GF only to find he had been killed; he later wrote to my Grandmother). Presumably there may have been some informal sharing of officers - I think Bradbury was probably commanding one of the 1/4th companies (based on the 1/4th WD reference to loss of 3 Co commanders). The 1/4th WD makes reference to being "lent" officers from the 19th Lancs Fusrs - the numbers in the 1/4th I think had taken a hammering that month: 42 Officers and 932 ORs on 12/4/1918, but only 20 Officers and 563 ORs by 19/4/1918. This was before my GF joined so I have not dug back that far (although I have Grant's battalion History).

To complete the set Beck ("Missing" per the 1/4th WD), is shown on CWGC as 6th Y&L and is commemorated on the Loos Memorial ("KIA" per SDGW).

David

[roel22]

David, in case you've never been there: here are a few video-stills showing the location of 'blue line-trench'.

The first pic presents a view from Kemmel no. 1 towards where the trench used to be, in the corn-field.

[roel22]

...and a view from the road, looking at where the trench once was

[roel22]

...and the location of the (failed) attack from blue line trench on German positions on Cheapside Road, which took place april 26th 1918.

Cheapside Road (Kriekstraat) is where the trees are. The cemetery is Suffolk cem.

The man in blue collar is the farmer who's been living here since 1919!

regards

Roel

Edited 30 September , 2016 by roel22

[dfaulder]

David, in case you've never been there: here are a few video-stills showing the location of 'blue line-trench'.

Roel,

Thanks for these - I have yet to go there - I am tempted to go this April but I may be thwarted by the number of ANZACs already booked (that's the trouble with 90th anniversaries!).

Regards

David

[roel22]

I am tempted to go this April but I may be thwarted by the number of ANZACs already booked (that's the trouble with 90th anniversaries!).

During the first three years of the war this used to be a 'quieter' part of the front, tourist-wise it still is.

On my visits to Vierstraat I never met a single tourist. Even locals were hard to find!

I doubt Vierstraat will be a hotspot next april...

Roel

[CROONAERT]

I am trying to reconstruct a battle ground and have (from 1/4 Y&L WD 26/4/1918) a reference to:

the Bde would at the same time push forward under a barrage to the LA POLKA-VIERSTRAAT LINE and occupy it.

David.

nearly 3 years down the line, I don't know whether this is still of any interest to you, but here's a trench map extract showing the area with the dotted line representing the Franco-British frontline as at 9am on 26th April 1918...

Dave

[roel22]

Dave, any idea why the dotted (front)line stops just under "Kleine"? (and continues further southwest?)

Roel

[CROONAERT]

Dave, any idea why the dotted (front)line stops just under "Kleine"? (and continues further southwest?)

Roel

Judging by another French trenchmap of similar date that I have (1:5000 scale), it would appear to be a 'fragmented' (or 'fluid') frontline in that particular area.

Dave