Australians in the RNAS

[Andrew Smith]

I echo the hope that you find a publisher soon.

I'm surprised that Little didn't get a VC, just as i am that Collishaw didn't.

Thanks for your support

I think you can say that for a lot of these brave men. Stan Dallas had claims as did De La Rue. Little's most famous fight was his 1 Vs 11 the report by Lieut Col Lewis is below, it could have been basis for a recommendation for a VC.

G.O.C

3rd Brigade RFC

1. I beg to bring to your notice the following, which has been reported to me by one of my sections North of Arras.

2. At 6.45 p.m. on 7/4/17 a Sopwith Triplane, working alone attacked eleven hostile machines, almost all Albatross Scouts N.E. of ARRAS. He completely outclassed the whole patrol of hostile machines, diving through them and climbing above them. One Albatross Scout painted red, which has been particularly noticed by this section, dived on to him and passed him. The Sopwith dived on him, and then easily climbed again above the whole patrol, drawing them all the time towards the anti aircraft guns.

3. As soon as they were in range, the anti-aircraft guns opened fire on the patrol, which turned Eastward, and the Sopwith returned safely.

4. The officers who witnessed the combat report that the manoeuvering of the Sopwith Triplane completely outclassed that of the Albatross Scout.

(Signed)W.W. Lewis

Lt. Col. R.G.A. Commanding

Anti Aircraft Arty Group

3rd Army.

A.A.H.Q. 3rd Army 8/4/1917

I have no evidence to claim that the Red Albatros was MvR. If any knows if he was flying on that day I would appreciate the info.

Regards,

Andrew

[sadsac]

Andrew, two awards for `your ??' DALLAS ;

DALLAS Roderic S DSC Flt.Cdr. RNAS 85T068

No. 1 Naval Squadron Field Marshall C-in-C France

22.06.17 Gazetted

R.N.A.S. Officers - France 22-23.04.17 & 03.05.17 DSC - bar to

On the 23rd April, 1917, near Douai, with two other Tri-planes, he engaged a formation of 9 hostile scouts and 2-seater machines. Two 2-seater machines were shot down, one by Flt.Cdr. Dallas unassisted.

Previously on the 22nd April, 1917, while patrolling with Flt.S/Lt. T.G. Culling, R.N., he engaged 14 hostile aircraft, shooting down one in flames, and another which was seen to crash.

DALLAS Roderic S N/E Flt.S/Lt. RNAS 85T022 N/E

Vice Admiral Dover Patrol N/E N/E

R.N.A.S. Officers - Attacks on Enemy Aerodrome 23.04.16 & 04.05.16 N/E

He was flying a fighting machine during the attack Maiakerquel (?) Aerodrome, on the 23rd April, 1916, and attacked a German two seater, which was chasing a Brejerch (?) on its return journey.

He followed the German machine down when it dived firing two trays of Lewis Gun ammunition and the German machine was observed to be out of control when close to the ground. Flt.S/Lt. Dallas was subjected to severe anti-aircraft fire and his machine was hit in many places.

Do you know Maiakerquel ?? & Brejerch ?? could be ????

Sadsac

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I haven't come accross Dallas before; I see your point! And my appitite is whetted even more.

[Andrew Smith]

I haven't come accross Dallas before; I see your point! And my appitite is whetted even more.

One of our Pals here, Adrian Hellwig, has written a biography on Stan Dallas, it is "Australian Hawk Over The Western Front ". I would recommend it to any WW1 aviation buff. It is published by Grub Street (hello what about me).

Adrian argues the case that Stan Dallas should be Australia's Ace of Aces but apart from that it reveals more about the man that was Stan Dallas. It’s a great read.

Regards,

Andrew

[Andrew Smith]

Do you know Maiakerquel ?? & Brejerch ?? could be ????

Sadsac

G'day Sadsac,

Maiakerquel? no idea, chasing a Brejerch, my guess would be chasing a Breguet. Breguet BTW was later to be Dallas' nickname.

[spidge]

Dallas did do okay!

In Memory of

Major RODERICK STANLEY DALLAS

D S O, D S C and Bar

Royal Air Force

who died age 26

on 01 June 1918

Croix de Guerre (France). Son of Honorah and the late Peter John Dallas, of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia.

Remembered with honour

PERNES BRITISH CEMETERY

[NigelS]

Andrew & Geoff (Spidge): being in Oz you might not have access to the Great Britain, Royal Aero Club Aviators’ Certificates, 1910-1950 which have recently been made available here on the UK Ancestry site; Here's the Index card for Basil Drummond Ash

the index says that there's a photo but unfortunately this links to record 1612 not Ash's Fr.1612 (this appears to be the case with all the Fr. prefixed records that I've looked at. I've queried this apparent error with Ancestry; it could just be mis-indexing, or worse, that there are no photos with the French records)

RACA records, Which I an put up if required, are also available for:

Cecil Horace Brinsmead (has photo)

Alfred Basil Helbert (has photo)

Phillip Andrew Johnston (no photo)

Ash is also commemorated on a memorial at All Saints Church, Saxton (see http://www.tadcaster-ww1-memorials.com/saxtontowtonww1.htm ) this site also has a cutting from a newspaper obit. which includes a photograph (I Don't know if you're still looking for one Andrew)

[Andrew Smith]

Thanks Nigel,

Thanks for the tip, I joined ancestry for 1 month so I guess I will be busy, and I have that photo of Ash. I appreciate any help, book is progressing well.

Regards,

Andrew.

[frev]

Resurrecting an old thread discovered whilst googling.

Just wondering if anyone has come across any substantial records during their research, to verify just who the actual pilot was in the crash involving Fraser & Duke?

The following Times article states that Fraser was flying when the plane crashed:

The Times, Thur Jan 13, 1916:

THE AIR ACCIDENT NEAR EASTBOURNE

SLIPPING OF A CONTROL WIRE

The East Sussex Coroner (Dr G. Vere Benson), at Eastbourne Town Hall yesterday, held an inquest on the bodies of PROBATIONARY FLIGHT SUB-LIEUTENANT GORDON EZRA DUKE, R.N., aged 20, of Toronto, Canada, and WARRANT OFFICER (SECOND GRADE) PERCIVAL VICTOR FRASER, aged 30, of Queensland, Australia, who lost their lives in an airplane accident near Hampden Park Railway Station on Monday.

Sergeant Donald Lovat Fraser, of the 5th Light Horse, Australian Imperial Forces, identified the body of his brother, whose home was at Rockhampton, Queensland, and who had been a marine engineer.

Commander Philip Shepherd stated that Sub-Lieutenant Duke joined the Royal Naval Air Service on December 16 last. In Toronto he was a clerk in the municipal department.

Richard Hutton, second air mechanic in charge of the Royal Naval Air Service at Eastbourne Aerodrome, said that Mr Fraser was the pilot and Sub-Lieutenant Duke the passenger. The witness, who watched the machine in flight, thought that something must have gone wrong with the elevation control.

Mr Gerald Ratcliff Hackman, Flight Superintendent in the Royal Naval Air Service, said he saw the biplane flying towards Hampden Park. He thought it was flying rather irregularly. He watched it turn to the left, right itself, and then make a mad dive from a height which he put at from 150ft to 200ft.

Commander Philip Shepherd said he had examined the remains of the machine. One wire had slipped off a pulley. This might have happened when the accident occurred. The elevators could not be used if the wire had slipped. He was of opinion that if the wire slipped it did so when the machine was in the air.

In reply to a question, Commander Shepherd said, “You do not find your men from Canada losing their heads very easily.”

The jury returned a verdict of “Accidental death.”

While this article from "A History of the Eastbourne Aviation Company" by McMahon & Partridge" which was transcribed on another old GWF thread, states that Duke was flying:

10 Jan 1916: A Short S38 biplane (3148) flown by Probationary Flight Sub-Lt Gordon Ezra Duke, a 20-year-old Canadian from Toronto, with his instructor, Warrant Officer (second Grade) Percival Victor Fraser, a 30-year-old Australian from Queensland, took off from the aerodrome and soon started to fly irregularly. Their machine nose-dived from approximately 150 ft to crash near a brickfield at Hampden Park owned by Alderman Mark Martin, the local builder, killing both men. The cause of the accident was thought to be a wire which slipped off an elevator control pulley. The funeral of the two men took place at Ocklynge Cemetery three days later.

Eastbourne Gazette 12 and 19 Jan 1916.

Cheers, Frev

PS - Andrew have you got a publisher for your book yet??

[Andrew Smith]

PS - Andrew have you got a publisher for your book yet??

G'day Frev,

It’s a small world I have just finished reading your article in the latest edition of "Digger".

To answer your last question yes and no. I had a bloke who was very keen to publish the work but he wants me to pay him $15,000 to publish the book. Now I have no aspirations of making any money from the book, thats not the motivation for writing it, but if I was to pay $15K to have it published my guess is that my wife would not be very happy. I will keep trying though.

Back to Fraser. It really is a confusing issue to who was at the controls at the time of the crash as "A History of the Eastbourne Aviation Company" says that Fraser took off and the aircraft "soon started to fly irregularly". But suggests that Duke was the pilot. Even the Times article suggest that via the quote from Commander Shepherd of “You do not find your men from Canada losing their heads very easily.”

Then you have AM Hutton stating that Fraser was the pilot. My guess (90% sure) is that Fraser was the pilot. I don't think that Fraser would take off and then had the controls to Duke and do nothing while the machine was acting up.

I have written to the The Rockhampton Morning Bulletin a while ago regarding two RNAS men Jardine and Fraser, but all I received back were men who knew Jardine as he was Principal of Rockhampton Grammar for decades. Perhaps I might try again as his brother Donald and his other brother Harold who flew with 1 AFC survived the war and became quite famous in the mining industry.

Take care,

Andrew

[frev]

Hi Andrew

It is a small world indeed - I just noticed your name on the inside cover of the same Digger - and wondered whether it was in fact you!

I can't believe publishers of today - nobody seems to want to publish the 'important' stuff.

Have you tried AMHP? http://www.warbooks.com.au/Catalogue/index-publishing.html

or Ron Austin's Slouch Hat Publications? http://www.slouch-hat.com.au/

Anyway, hang in there - as I've told a few friends in a similar boat recently - some of our best known classics - went through hundreds of rejections before making it to print.

My thinking was it seemed more likely that Fraser was flying too - but I guess I'll just have to leave it as a question mark in his file for now.

Cheers, Frev

[Andrew Smith]

G'day Frev,

Thanks for the leads on publishers. I know Ron as I have just started up an online military bookstore that I hope one day will be as big as Hylands but have a much lower retail price.

Yes I have joined the FFFAIF, but my main society is still The Australian Society of WW1 Aero Historians

If I find anyting more regarding Fraser I will let you know.

Regards,

Andrew

[frev]

Ah yes, I'm still thinking about joining your favourite society - hint taken.

Would really appreciate if you PM'd me the website for your bookstore (although I do get a discount at Hyland's!)

Cheers, Frev

[Andrew Smith]

G'day Frev,

I have the store site down at the moment as I am redesigning it so the shopping cart blends in. The store can be found at;

Reveille Books

It will reopen next Tuesday, June 16th.

Regards,

Andrew