Cameron or Gordon Highlanders? Help please

[michaelmclaren]

Hi,

Recently we discovered this picture among some old family photos. It may be my great-grandfather's brother Alexander Ritchie who we think served with the Cameron Highlanders and the Gordon Highlanders before being killed in March 1918. Can anyone tell from the uniform if it is one of these regiments? I would be very grateful for any help.

Thanks for looking

Michael

[Joe Sweeney]

Looks like Scottish Horse.

Joe Sweeney

[Tom A McCluskey]

Michael,

The photo is of a soldier from the Lovat Scouts; these were a Highland Yeomanry Regiment.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

[4thGordons]

I am as pretty certain it is not a Gordon.

I assume you have these but it looks like THIS is your great uncle's CWGC entry and THIS is the corresponding MIC link

my first reaction was to agree with Joe - he certainly is fulfilling a mounted role (see spurs etc) and scottish horse seems the obvious choice - my only concern is that the capbage and collar brasses (in themselves a bit unusual in a wartime image of a highland regiment - but more common with scottish horese I think) look a little too circular.... any chance of a close up of the cap/collar badges and/or his left shoulder?

Chris

Edit: Tom posted while I was searching!... I agree! Lovat Scouts - rounder badges!

[Joe Sweeney]

I can see that it is indeed Lovat Scouts.

[high wood]

The 1/1st and 1/2nd battalions of the Lovat's Scouts were disbanded and sent to form the 10th (Lovat's Scouts) Battalion, Cameron Highlanders. They served in Egypt, Salonika and the Western Front.

[mctaz]

Sure is Lovat Scouts, here's another, you can see his badge & collar dogs, & shoulder titles clearly

Jim

[michaelmclaren]

Thankyou all very much for these replies, they are a great help. On close inspection of the original the badges are identical to Jim's photo so he must be Lovat Scouts. With this photo we found others (out of uniform) which suggest that this is definitely Alex Ritchie, but there is no mention of Lovat Scouts on his MIC, just Gordons and Camerons. Is it likely that this would not be mentioned? From your replies there is some connection with the Camerons but would this be the explanation?

There were a number of Alexander Ritchies killed in the war and we are fairly sure which one is my ancestor (Chris's link is correct), but with this different regiment is it possible we have the wrong record?

Thanks again guys for taking the time to reply

Cheers

Michael

[oldleedsman]

Thankyou all very much for these replies, they are a great help. On close inspection of the original the badges are identical to Jim's photo so he must be Lovat Scouts. With this photo we found others (out of uniform) which suggest that this is definitely Alex Ritchie, but there is no mention of Lovat Scouts on his MIC, just Gordons and Camerons. Is it likely that this would not be mentioned? From your replies there is some connection with the Camerons but would this be the explanation?

There were a number of Alexander Ritchies killed in the war and we are fairly sure which one is my ancestor (Chris's link is correct), but with this different regiment is it possible we have the wrong record?

Thanks again guys for taking the time to reply

Cheers

Michael

Hi Michael

My grandfather's record seems pretty similar to your ancestor's. His Discharge papers say he joined the Lovat Scouts, yet his MIC only shows the Camerons and Gordons. The Camerons' museum have confirmed he joined the Camerons from the Lovat Scouts (along with many others). So, no idea why this isn't mentioned later on. His medals say that he was in the Camerons, so he must have transferred to the Gordons after the end of the war, before discharge. Anyone know why?

David

[michaelmclaren]

David,

It would be a help if you could post your grandfathers details so we can check his MIC. I think it is likely that your grandfathers transfer to the Cameron Highlanders took place before he went overseas. If this was the case then Lovat Scouts would not be mentioned as the MIC only records the units from when the man arrived in theatre.

I have since found out more about my own ancestor Alex Ritchie. He was sent to France in early 1917 with the Cameron Highlanders but was transferred as part of a batch of about 50 other men to the Gordon Highlanders soon after arrival, probably because that was where the need was greatest at that time. I am sure my ancestor would have had no choice in this.

There will be many other possible reasons why a man would change units e.g. if he was wounded for a time he may be returned to a different unit. The service numbers may provide clues. Your grandfathers medals would show Camerons as being the unit he was in when he qualified for the medal, he may have been transferred to Gordons any time after this, not necessarily after the war.

Good luck with your research

Michael

[oldleedsman]

Hi Michael

Thanks of the response. His name was Alexander McCloy and he is the only person of that name in the MICs, so easy to find.

Someone else has confirmed that the 3rd Bn Camerons (who he joined from the Lovat Scouts), never left the UK. See - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...t&p=1260088

So, as you suggest, this must have happened before he saw any active service and he must have joined another Cameron unit in France. He was reportedly wounded in the Somme, but I only have my father's word for that. He volunteered Jan 1915 and got one Chevron Blue Stripe, so only saw active service for a year before his injury, so the dates would fit roughly with The Somme (assuming say 6/8 months UK training).

Very interested in the point you made regarding what would be written on his medals ie the unit he was with when he qualified - thanks for that. He definitely ended up with the Gordons as I have his Glengarry which has the Gordon tartan and badge.

I've been looking at Ancestry.co.uk at the surviving service records to see if I can make any association between the regimental numbers and dates to get a rough idea of when he joined the Camerons and Gordons, but haven't been able to make much sense. I was interested to find another guy who enrolled on the same day as my grandfather in the same place (Glasgow) who also joined the Lovat Scouts. Also, another who went LS => Camerons => Gordons who had Reg No.s within 10/20 of my grandfather's, so there may have been a number doing similar transfers.

I've just found an early photo of him which I think I've identified as Lovat Scouts uniform which I'm pleased about.

[Waddell]

I have since found out more about my own ancestor Alex Ritchie. He was sent to France in early 1917 with the Cameron Highlanders but was transferred as part of a batch of about 50 other men to the Gordon Highlanders soon after arrival, probably because that was where the need was greatest at that time. I am sure my ancestor would have had no choice in this.

Michael,

I think you might find that soldiers were drafted into the Gordons after April/May 1917 when they were badly cut up at Arras. I have a similar situation in my family. You don't know which battalion Gordons he served in? EDIT- I see 7th Battalion.

Regards the Lovats amalgamating into the 10th Camerons as mentioned by Highwood, this took place in Egypt at the end of 1916 prior to leaving for Salonika. The Lovats were part of the Highland mounted brigade patrolling against the Senussi. Prior to that they had served in the latter stages of the Gallipoli campaign.

Melvilles book "The story of the Lovat Scouts" confirms this-

"In mid-September, orders came for both Regiments of Lovat Scouts to leave the Highland Mounted Brigade and move to Cairo to be formed into one infantry battalion. The Scouts were to become the 10th (Lovat Scouts) Bn, Q.O Cameron Highlanders. The Scottish Horse were similarly to be made into the 13th (Scottish Horse) Bn. of the Black Watch"

I'm certain though that they were only Camerons on paper as they kept their uniforms and identity. As a unit they didn't go to France till 1918.

Great photo by the way of the Lovats uniform.

Scott.

[michaelmclaren]

Hi Scott,

Yes Alex Ritchie served with the 1/7th Gordon Highlanders 51st Highland Division. An analysis of casualties among men transferred from Camerons to Gordons with consecutive service numbers shows the first casualties to be on 23/4/17 which I think was during the fierce fighting for the Roeux Chemical Works near Arras.

I wondered if similar analysis might help David but I can't see any similar patterns in this case, of course he may not have been transferred as part of a 'big' batch. Hopefully someone with a better understanding of the numbers can help. I think a useful step would be to establish which battalion Alexander McCloy served, and I think the only sure way would be to check the medal rolls at Kew (unless the regimental museum can help). I may be in London soon and if I had time I would try and look but can't promise in case I don't make it.

David,

Can I ask how you obtained the detail on the Lovat Scouts from the museum. Did you visit them? or were they able to help by e-mail/letter? I only ask because I wondered if they could give me that information for Alex Ritchie (whos service record is also lost)

Michael

PS Many thanks Scott for the detail on Lovat Scouts. There certainly seems to be several connections between Lovats and Camerons. I am sure my ancestor only served on the Western Front.

[oldleedsman]

Hi Michael

Thanks for your reply. I contacted the museum by email. I dealt with a woman called Amanda Pattison-Wilson - amanda@thehighlandersmuseum.com - she told me:

'I have found 26538 McCloy A in the enlistment book for the Cameron Highlanders. It reads A/LCpl 5402 and that the whole page of men transferred from 2/2nd Lovat Scouts to 3rd Battalion.'

When I asked her for a date, she said there wasn't one, but the book covered Oct 14 - Jan 17, so she may well be able to help for Alex Ritchie.

They usually ask for a donation, but because she forgot about my query and took 6 weeks to answer, she didn't want anything. Somewhat strangely, her phone number was an Edinburgh one.

I also dealt with Lieutenant Colonel (Retd) AM Cumming OBE in Inverness - info@thehighlandersmuseum.com - who ultimately provided the same info.

Out of interest, I found another soldier with a very similar record to my grandfather's

Alexander McCloy: Lovat Scouts 5403; Camerons 26538; Gordons 40633

Robert Moore: Lovat Scouts 5458; Camerons 26545; Gordons 40647

So there may have been a number who took this route.

If you did manage to get to Kew that would be wonderful.

David

[michaelmclaren]

David,

Many thanks for this info re the museum. I will certainly give them a try.

The other record you have found certainly suggests some sort of pattern. If a service record could be found for a man with this pattern of numbers it would be a big help to you.

I will let you know if I make it to Kew.

Michael

[oldleedsman]

In my reply above, I should have put 'Oct 1914 - Jan 1917' rather than 'Oct 14 - Jan 17'. Apologies for any confusion.

[michaelmclaren]

David,

I have some new information which may be of use in your research.

I managed to visit Kew and had a look at the medal roll for your grandfather (if you PM me with an e-mail address I will send you a photo of the page).

The medal roll states Alexander McCloy 1st Cameron Hdrs S/26538, 7th Gordon Hdrs S/40633

The surrounding names on the roll give a number of names with a similar sequence of numbers. These may be worth investigating because if service records exist they may indicate dates relevant to your own research.

I did locate a service file (available on Ancestry if you have access) for a Percy Kenneth Hunt (Cameron Hdrs S/26638 and Gordons S/40639). He also enlisted in the Lovat Scouts, posted overseas with Camerons 7/12/16 then transferred to 1/7th Gordons via the 4th Reserve Entrenching Battalion arriving March 1917. Sadly he was killed in action on 31/7/17.

It seems likely your grandfather was part of this same transfer. On the 3/3/1917 the war diary of the 1/7th Gordon Hdrs states "Reinforcement of 60 other ranks from 4th Reserve Entrenching Batt all originally belonged to Lovat Scouts all in "Cameron" kilt"

Incredibly I believe my ancestor Alex Ritchie was part of that same group.

I hope the above makes sense, please ask for clarification on anything you are not sure of. I think you need to be careful with service numbers that you don't make too many assumptions and end up with the wrong conclusion so it may be worth looking into other soldiers with similar numbers to see if the same applies. Again I have some pictures of the surrounding names in the roll should you wish these.

You can also now find out more from the war diaries for the 1/7th Gordons (available at Kew) or for a good summary of the Battalion movements in the war try the "History of the 51st Highland Division 1914-1918" by Major F.W. Bewsher

Best Wishes

Michael

[michaelmclaren]

David,

I meant to add that these dates could still be consistent with the family history that your grandfather was wounded on the Somme. Many people assume this to mean the 1916 battles, but fighting in this region took place till the end of the war.

My own family history was that Alex Ritchie "died on the Somme", which he did - but in 1918.

Michael

[PPCLI]

Good stuff, Michael. I agree that the service file you found will be representative of this drafts' movements.

For David's information, Alexander McCloy is named in a list of wounded Gordon Highlanders, published in The Scotsman, 18th June 1917, page 7: M'Cloy, 40633, A. (Ayr). Men with numbers and 40628 (Cpl D. Henderson, Caithness) and 40636 (L-Cpl J. Morrison, Glasgow) are named in the same list. The delay in the timings of the publication of these lists of three weeks to a month, suggests that these men were wounded with the 1/7th Gordons on or around the capture of Roeux, 13-14th May 1917.

However, a note of caution. The list also gives a number of Gordon Highlanders killed in action, including three 1/7th men who died on 23rd April 1917 (the Second Battle of the Scarpe). These men appear to be omissions from previous lists, so it may be that Alexander was wounded around April and had been omitted from am earlier list. Probably the best way of finding out would be looking in the local newspaper in April-June 1917.

All the best,

Stuart

[ian turner]

For the record:

SDGW: Alexander Ritchie, Pvte 310290 7th Gordons, Killed in action. Born Kilbarchan, Renf, enlisted: Glasgow. No former service details in other regiments given.

The 1/1st and 1/2nd Regiments Lovat Scouts were amalgamated into one infantry battalion ín Sept 1916 and was made upto strength by the 3rd Scottish Horse which provided D company. It was designated the 10th (Lovat Scouts) Bn The Queens Own Cameron Highlanders.

The battalion was still referred to as The Lovat Scouts and continued to wear its blue diced bonnets, badges and Fraser tartan shoulder patches.

This is from the Queen's Own Highlanders, illustrated history.

[oldleedsman]

Michael and Stuart

I'm incredibly grateful to both of you for your investigations. Because his war record hadn't survived, I never thought I'd be able to find out so much information. My father will be so pleased when I tell him tomorrow.

The only puzzling aspect, that had thrown me off on the wrong scent, was that he has his Cameron regiment and number on his medals - whereas it should have been his Gordon one.

Michael:

I was never that certain that he was injured at the Somme and your own family history shows how misleading statements like 'died on the Somme' can be. Thanks.

It looks pretty incredible that my Alec and your Alex were possibly in the same units. What I can't get over is that my grandfather was almost 2 years before he saw action between attesting (Jan 15) and overseas transfer (Dec 16). What were they doing!?

I have PM'd you and would be very pleased to receive a copy of the medal roll page you photographed. I will look for the service records of others listed. Having names will be very helpful. I've been searching ancestry using wildcards in the Reg No (eg '265**' & 'Cameron') but have found the indexing of Reg Nos to be not very reliable. What records I did find seemed to point to around Nov 1916 for his transfer to the Camerons and this seems to tie in Kenneth Hunt.

Stuart:

I'm stunned that you found a reference to my grandfather in The Scotsman. I had a quick look the other day but I searched for McCloy, not M'Cloy (and found nothing) and I don't have a subscription. I can't thank you enough for finding this. I will now pay up and get a copy!

Thanks also for the general info on how the long a delay would be likely between a wounding and appearing in a list - this is very useful.

Thanks again to the two of you. Just in case anyone is remotely interested, I shall attempt to upload a photo of my grandfather in what is, I think, his Lovat Scout's uniform. He has spurs, reinforced breeches and a riding crop, so must have been trained on horseback.

David

[Waddell]

David,

The cuffs on his tunic are different to most Lovat Scouts uniforms I have seen. They look like an officers (?).

Scott

[oldleedsman]

Scott

I'd wondered about his cuffs also and haven't seen anything quite like them elsewhere. To my knowledge he never rose above Acting Lance Corporal.

I found a useful pdf called 'A Basic Introduction to interpreting Great War Photographs' by Chris McDonald which was pretty good, but not for the cuffs. (It's here if you move the mouse to 'GUIIDE TO INTERPRETING GREAT WAR PHOTOS' text.)

I have zoomed in on the collar buttons and bonnet badge and they look like Lovat Scouts to my (untrained) eye.

David

[Waddell]

David,

The tunic is that worn by the Scottish Horse which were also a similar yeomanry unit (had a look in a few books laying around). The tunic was apparently unique to their regiment. The cap badge and collar dogs are Lovat Scouts, the Scottish Horse ones are a different shape. Scottish Horse wore a similar bonnet, only the dicing is different.

So not an officer, just came by a Scottish Horse tunic.

Regards,

Scott.

[oldleedsman]

Thanks a lot Scott.

This forum is absolutely brilliant - people are so knowledgeable and helpful. It's a great resource for research.