dfaulder Posted 15 January , 2008 Share Posted 15 January , 2008 From the 1/4th Y&L War Diary, I get the following (fairly detailed) information: 26th 12.30pm Orders received for Bdg to move forward and take over a portion of the FRONT LINE (CHEEPSIDE LINE) between left flank of 9th KOYLI (64th I.B.) about N15 b 9.9 and the HALLE BASS - VIERSTRAAT Rd. The Battn took over the "BLUE LINE" from the VIERSTRAAT -- Rd N10 b 4.7 to N10 a 9.1 . HQ was established in a dugout at N10 a 9.9 . 5th Y&L Rgmt were on our right and XXII Corps Mounted Troops on our left. The move was completed about 3.30am. At 13.30am orders had also been recieved to the effect that a counter-attack would be carried out by 39th French Division on the right of our new position and by the 25th British Division on our left. The Bde would at the same time push forward under a barrage to the LA POLKA-VIERSTRAAT LINE and occupy it. 4.25am The attack took place. The barrage which was to fall 250 yds in front of the BLUE LINE was absolutely inadequate and 5 or 6 German machine guns which had been pushed forward onto the CHEEPSIDE Rd (running from N10 b 8.5 to N10 b 0.2 **) were quite ?????ched. There was fortunately a heavy mist which covered the beginning of our advance but -- as soon as the movement was noticed the machine guns on the CHEEPSIDE Rd opened fire and rendered further advance impossible. The Battn as forced to withdraw to the BLUE LINE having lost several officers, including three Company Commanders, and about a third of its strength in casualties. How do I find out what is available to cover this area and where I might find them (I think one of the area is at Nat Archives, but it has always been out with another reader on the two previous visits - and without seeing it I am not sure I have the right area)? Ideally what I would like to find is: Contemporary (April 1918) Trench Map Any Post War Clearance Maps Current Map (or Multimap/Google Maps ref - I have found the right general area - I have identified Vierstraat which looks like both a street and a place) TIA David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 15 January , 2008 Share Posted 15 January , 2008 April 8th 1918... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 15 January , 2008 Share Posted 15 January , 2008 May 11th 1918... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 15 January , 2008 Share Posted 15 January , 2008 Today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 16 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2008 Wow trench maps and current map within 20 minutes, thanks! Can I ask some supplementaries concerning interpretation: 1. The Diary refers to "BLUE LINE"; is this effectively jargon for the then current British Front Line (I know our trenches are shown blue - but BLUE LINE is written almost as a specific location)? 2. The maps have a grid (I note a "10" in the centre of one of the squares): how do I locate the "N10 b 4.7 to N10 a 9.1" type references? 3. Scale: Am I right in thinking that the large grid squares (of four smaller ones) are about 2miles by 2 miles in size? Thanks again David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 16 January , 2008 Share Posted 16 January , 2008 Can I ask some supplementaries concerning interpretation: 1. The Diary refers to "BLUE LINE"; is this effectively jargon for the then current British Front Line (I know our trenches are shown blue - but BLUE LINE is written almost as a specific location)? 2. The maps have a grid (I note a "10" in the centre of one of the squares): how do I locate the "N10 b 4.7 to N10 a 9.1" type references? 3. Scale: Am I right in thinking that the large grid squares (of four smaller ones) are about 2miles by 2 miles in size? 1....Coloured lines (in name) refer to specific trench lines in defence or (more usually) attack. For want of a better word, it's a "target line" (ie. in an attack, the attacking forces might be expected to reach "black Line"(which may be the second line for example) by 7am, the "blue line" by 8am, the "brown line" by 10am, etc etc. This reference isn't actually a trench name - more of a code name. 2...The squares shown on the maps are actually (in this case) N10 and N11, etc. N.10.b 4.7 is shown by the green blob (below) and N10.a.9.1 is shown by the yellow blob. 3...No. If I'm referring to the same as you (ie the square marked "10", or the square marked "11" that have 4 subsquares) then the size is half a mile by half a mile. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 16 January , 2008 Share Posted 16 January , 2008 Same area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 16 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2008 Many thanks for both the above replies David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 16 January , 2008 Share Posted 16 January , 2008 David. An aerial view - July (I think!) 1918... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay46 Posted 5 March , 2008 Share Posted 5 March , 2008 Hello David, I have just seen your message from 15 January and all the amazing replies. It's an incredible coincidence, but I have this week been researching a distant relative, Crpl George Hudson MM, of the 1st/4th York and Lancashire Regiment. (201704). I have only just obtained his medal card and have seen on CWGC that he died on the 26 April 1918 which is, of course, the date referred to in your diary. It's quite uncanny how this thread has now provided me information even before I had thought about searching for it! Is this the most weird thing ever? Lin PS if anyone knows anything about his MM that would be great - or has this also been answered somewhere else??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 5 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 5 March , 2008 Hello David, I have just seen your message from 15 January and all the amazing replies. It's an incredible coincidence, but I have this week been researching a distant relative, Crpl George Hudson MM, of the 1st/4th York and Lancashire Regiment. (201704). I have only just obtained his medal card and have seen on CWGC that he died on the 26 April 1918 which is, of course, the date referred to in your diary. It's quite uncanny how this thread has now provided me information even before I had thought about searching for it! Is this the most weird thing ever? Lin PS if anyone knows anything about his MM that would be great - or has this also been answered somewhere else??? As we get close to the 90th anniversary of that date, this sort of co-incidence is quite spooky (even though rationally I do not believe in such things!). I see like my GF, George has "no known grave" and is comemorated at Tyne Cott. Looking at the History of the Hallamshires, "The 1'4th (Hallamshire) Battalion York & Lancaster Regt" DP Grant, Naval and Military Press (on the Long Long Trail Bookshop list - cheaper than Amazon, even though delivery is via Amazon, when I last looked). I see (p 118) 1918 May The authorities signfied their approval of the fight put up by the Battalion in April by the award of a number of decorations. Colonel Branson was awarded a bar to his D.S.O., Lieutenant W.D. Gifford received a bar to his M.C., Captains D.P. Grant and L.W. Johnson, 2nd Lieutenants H. Payne and C.R. Hope were awarded the M.C. The D.C.M. was given to C.S.M. W. Cadman, A/C.S.M. G . Pearson and Sergeant J. Davidson; the M.M. to Sergeant F. Baker; Corporals S. Fell and G. Hudson; Lance-Corporals C. Ogden, C. Lawrence, T. York, and H. Leaver; Privates H. Jeffery, J. Clark, A.B. Cahill, F.W. Sissons, P. Wray, G. Thickett, J. Andrews, H. Atkinson, A. Bennett, A. Peat, R. Winter, A.H. Neve and F.W. Wharton; and a bar to the M.M. to Privates E.H. Hopkinson and C. Turtle. (I have underlined those that died (KIA+DoW) 26/4/1918 - I have not checked DoW after 26th) Grant drew heavily on the Battalion War Diary so I suspect you will find this as the last entry for May in the Diary (at the National Archives - I only have a copy of the April Diary). Although my GF and George are both commemorated at Tyne Cott (which has a large number of "known unto God" graves), I suspect that they lie in a smaller cemetery nearer Vierstraat. I note for instance that the SUFFOLK CEMETERY, Vierstraat contains 8 unknowns "Apart from one burial made in November 1917, the cemetery was not used again until October 1918 when the 38th Labour Group buried men killed during the German advance the previous April, all but two of whom belonged to the 1st/4th and 1st/5th York and Lancasters. At this time, it was called Cheapside Cemetery. Suffolk Cemetery contains 47 First World War burials, eight of them unidentified." I suspect the same may be true of other nearby cemeteries. I feel tempted to visit this April. Hope this helps, best wishes David Faulder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 5 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 5 March , 2008 An aerial view - July (I think!) 1918... CROONAERT, Thanks for this "devastating" view David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay46 Posted 6 March , 2008 Share Posted 6 March , 2008 Hello David, Thanks so much for the extra details. I never dreamt I would ever be able to glean so much information in such a short space of time. Even now I'm not sure how I 'stumbled' across your original message but I'm so pleased I did. Again, many thanks. Lin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 6 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 6 March , 2008 Hello David, Thanks so much for the extra details. I never dreamt I would ever be able to glean so much information in such a short space of time. Even now I'm not sure how I 'stumbled' across your original message but I'm so pleased I did. Again, many thanks. Lin Lin, Looking through the May WD I came across Note that the dates refer to 11th to 19th (I think) - so the award to your relative was in an earlier action than the one in which he died. Those actions are described in the April WD which is available for download (Document Online) at The National Archives. From a quick look I could not see a specific mention of Cpl G Hudson. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay46 Posted 6 March , 2008 Share Posted 6 March , 2008 Hi David, That's interesting. From the extract you've attached is certainly seems to indicate an award date between the 11th and 19th April. As you say, this would therefore suggest another action, not the 26th. I'll have to get hold of a few pages from the diary and see whether I can pin it down any further - fingers crossed there may be something. Thanks for letting me know, otherwise I would probably have concluded his award and death were both on the 26th. As a matter of interest, if you use a general Google search of "New York Times + Vierstraat" it does throw up some links to articles which were appearing in the NYT around this very time. Again, I have no idea how I found these - it must have been a total fluke - but they do make interesting reading - allowing for any editorial flavouring that may have been used. Cheers again - this continues to develop into an extremely useful thread. Lin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 6 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 6 March , 2008 Hi David, >><<I'll have to get hold of a few pages from the diary and see whether I can pin it down any further - fingers crossed there may be something.>><< When I downloaded the April diary (in three portions each about 9 pages of pdf if I remember), there was the diary plus an account of action 10th to 18th April >><<As a matter of interest, if you use a general Google search of "New York Times + Vierstraat" it does throw up some links to articles which were appearing in the NYT around this very time.>><< Thanks I will have a google! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay46 Posted 6 March , 2008 Share Posted 6 March , 2008 Hello again David, I've just come out of the NYT site and I've now found that a far more structured approach to finding these articles is to go to the NYT home page (www.nytimes.com). Then from the search menu pick the 1851-1980 archive and put in Vierstraat. So far I've printed out articles covering several dates at the end of the April 1918. Whist I've not tried it, it may well be able to produce results for other actions/dates. I've not bothered registering with the site and just tend to leave if it asks me to log in. However, if I have to I will register. Happy reading. Lin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 6 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 6 March , 2008 Hello again David, I've just come out of the NYT site and I've now found that a far more structured approach to finding these articles is to go to the NYT home page (www.nytimes.com). Then from the search menu pick the 1851-1980 archive and put in Vierstraat. So far I've printed out articles covering several dates at the end of the April 1918. Whist I've not tried it, it may well be able to produce results for other actions/dates. I've not bothered registering with the site and just tend to leave if it asks me to log in. However, if I have to I will register. Happy reading. Lin Presumably from Google you got to Report from Kemmel Registering (for free) will eventually get you to the same document (but different URL) For the Times you can use Infotrac. There are a few articles there when you search on Vierstraat and April 1918. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay46 Posted 7 March , 2008 Share Posted 7 March , 2008 Hello David, I've not looked at the Times yet, although it has now been added to an ever-increasing 'to do list'. The NYT articles I've downloaded run over a few dates at the end of April, with references being made to events along different sections of this front. The Report from Kemmel is one of these. I hope with more digging even more information may come to light. In view of this I'd better look at how to add weblinks to my posts, just in case - I think I've figured out attachments so hopefully it should be fairly straightforward. Unfortunatley, it a day of meetings coming up, so I'll have to leave matters on hold till later. Cheers for now. Lin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay46 Posted 8 March , 2008 Share Posted 8 March , 2008 Hello David, These are the articles I've copied from the NWT. When read in date order they do offer quite an interesting perspective on what was happening around Vierstraat (albeit not exclusively) at this time. Unfortunately, no specific references to the Y&Ls as far as I can see. 26April - British Success in the South 26April - The War Situation 27April - The War Situation 27April - Fought for Hill in Fog (ties in with the weather conditions referred to in WD) 28April - Military Critic on Third Phase of German Offensive 29April - Shells Raining on Ypres 29April - The War Situation 30April - Foe’s Defeat Disastrous 2May - British Guards Saved Day I hope I've sorted out the links ok - but just in case they are all to be found in the 1851-1980 archive with 'Vierstraat' as the search query. Lin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMTDICKSON Posted 9 March , 2008 Share Posted 9 March , 2008 May 11th 1918... The trench map I have of the area is dated April 1917 and it is far more detailed than the one a year later. I am completely ignorant of these things, having come accross the map with letters and other items last year where they had lain hidden for so long. My Trench map has the british trenches marked, but the enemy trenches are not only in much greater detail and over a larger area, but they have been given names - ''umpire alley'' etc. There are also other sites marked where, for example the Lancashires stabled thier horses. Curiously, although obviously brought back by, I believe my husband's father pte Samuel Thompson it could also have been brought back by Sgt Percy Cauper, whose 'Active Service' letters of 1918/19 never contained any regt number and I believe may have been in a Concert Party in France and Germany - he sent a postcard from Kohn but nobody seems to know what happened tohim) the name on the map is crossed through - the indelible pencil signature surname begins Sch but that is all that can be deciphered. Perhaps it was captured and recaptured later! The German Bugle and the English Trench whistle were sold on cash in the attic before I discovered the rest of the things! It is only since joining this forum and posting the letters that I found so many people interested. I sent other things to auction which were there before these things, and I wish I had not - some photos and badges. I did not realise of what historic value they were. I know we had medals but they were all stolen by workmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 17 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2008 Hello David, These are the articles I've copied from the NYT. >><< I hope I've sorted out the links ok - but just in case they are all to be found in the 1851-1980 archive with 'Vierstraat' as the search query. Lin Lin, Thanks for the above - apart from having to edit the URL in the last one they all worked OK. Below are some London Times links Times 26 April 1918 Page 7 Times 26 April 1918 Page 5 Times 27 April 1918 page 6 Times 29 April 1918 Page 8 Times 29 April 1918 Page 9 Times 29 April 1918 Page 10 best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay46 Posted 18 March , 2008 Share Posted 18 March , 2008 Many thanks for the LT links, David, and my apologies if one of the earlier NYT links needed correcting. Time for some more reading I think. Kind regards. Lin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 19 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 19 March , 2008 Lin (and any others following this thread), I have posted a Google Earth image (including a trench map overlay) of the area in another thread. best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay46 Posted 20 March , 2008 Share Posted 20 March , 2008 Hello David, That's a very effective image and many thanks for letting us know about it. Lin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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