Merchant Navy,Mercantile Marine. CWGC Listings

[Uplandsboy49]

An interesting situation has arisen regarding 3 Mercantile Marine men , all interred in Niederzwehren Military cemetery.

These men are listed separately in the Cemetery book as Non World War dead

Trawler Skipper J.T. Baker, "Skirbeck" (Boston) Died of sickness 15th July 1915 V.B6

Fireman H. Marsden Steam Trawler "Skirbeck" (Boston) Died os Sickness 17th June 1915 V.B5

Chief Engineer G.Christian. Steam Trawler 'Indian' (Boston) Died of sickness 31st January 1915 5.A6

The CWGC tell me they are not on their database because they are non-combatants and so do not appear on the CWGC search list.

Now if these were just fishermen caught up in the war I can see what they mean.

However Captain Oscar H. Henderson (II.A10) Mercantile Marine of the" ss Berwick Law" is listed and he died of pneumonia 30th January 1918

Two or three questions cross my mind regarding this. Did fishing not contribute to the war effort, if not why were they imprisoned?

Captain Henderson's larger ship was torpedoed whilst in ballast. How did he become a combatant. Did he also hold a RNR Rank as a Captain of a merchant vessel?

With the VC won by Thomas Crisp also a "Skipper" But a RNR officer in H.M.Smack Nelson on Q ship work also listed I could see how he was a combatant.

Did normal cargo carrying Merchant Navy ships change things regarding CWGC Status?

It seems sad that the 3 non-combatants have such plain headstones with just Crucifix,name and date of death on.

Were or are Fishing vessels not sailing under a common flag as such? Captain Henderson has the Mercantile Marine Emblem also on his headstone.

Perhaps this is outside of the WW1 forum as there are only Army ranks listed but an admiral in disguise could perhaps elaborate for me, a mere landlubber.

[joseph]

Commercial fishing was not part of the war effort until the formation of the ‘Fishing Reserve’ in 1916 the fishermen then came under control of the Government.

Skirbeck, 171grt, 22 August 1914, North Sea, captured by cruiser, sunk by gunfire, crew made prisoners

Indian, 185grt, 22 August 1914, North Sea, captured by torpedo boat, fate listed as not known, crew made prisoners

Most Mercantile Marine Officers were part of the RNR

Regards Charles

[centurion]

Most Mercantile Marine Officers were part of the RNR

I'm interested in this as it might be the answer to something that has puzzled me.

One of my Great Uncles was a merchant marine officer (despite having served in the army in the Boer War) and was given his first captaincy during WW1. According to what his sister (my Grandmother) said, many years ago his ship was sunk by a U boat on its first voyage under his command. He survived and was given another ship only to have the same thing happen again. At this point, my Grandmother said, he became somewhat anti German and volunteered for service on the Q ships. She did not know if he actualy served on these or not. For years I couldn't understand how a merchant marine officer could volunteer for service on an RN vessel but if he was also RNR this would make sense. Is there an accessable list of RNR officers?

[Uplandsboy49]

Thanks for the update, I suppose the next of kin of fishermen captured would not have the same backup Government pension etc if they were like my three men?

I would also like to know if there is a list of RNR officers from that period too.

The Thomas Crisp story would make a good film as he surely had the "Nelson" touch when he got his VC.

The expert on him is Marc Hope who has a thread somewhere else on this vast site.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...hl=Thomas+Crisp

John

[Uplandsboy49]

I forgot to ask whether the fishing reserve got its own flag? I suppose if the men died before the formation of the reserve they died without an emblem to add to the headstone?

I noticed that there were army officers shown on RAF headstones despite the changeover on 1st April 1918. Was there a delay in the changeover of ranks.

[centurion]

I forgot to ask whether the fishing reserve got its own flag? I suppose if the men died before the formation of the reserve they died without an emblem to add to the headstone?

I noticed that there were army officers shown on RAF headstones despite the changeover on 1st April 1918. Was there a delay in the changeover of ranks.

Yes and they had to integrate the RNAS types too. There was actually quite a bit of discussion as to what ranks (and their titles) the RAF would have and at one time some ridiculous sounding latin based titles were being kicked around before they got onto airman, pilot officer, flying officer etc

[Peter Gower]

Further to this discussion: Is there a web site that gives the names of Mercahnt Seamen who were not considered War deaths? Peter

[Terry Denham]

The rule for Mercantile Marine men is that they had to die both on duty and of a war cause or a cause due to an increased threat brought on by war. If they did not meet both those conditions, they cannot have war grave status or CWGC commemoration. It is nothing to do with being a combatant. The Mercantile Marine were one of the Recognised Civilian Organisations which got CWGC commemoration if they met these two requirements.

However, if a man was in the naval forces, he would get automatic commemoration no matter what the time or cause of death.

The men who died of illness listed above obviously did not fit the Mercantile Marine requirement as they seem not to have died of a war cause. The other, Henderson, died as a result of an illness attributable to the effects of a sinking due to a war cause whilst on duty. He actually died of pneumonia whilst held captive aboard a German submarine after the torpedoing - thereby fulfilling both the Mercantile Marine requirements for CWGC commemoration.

[SiegeGunner]

If being attacked, sunk and then imprisoned in a POW camp by the enemy wasn't enough to qualify under 'due to an increased threat brought about by the war', what was?

[Terry Denham]

Quite agree. It's a bit like not qualifying for a VC by defusing a bomb as it is 'not in the face of the enemy'!!!

However, that is the rule and I believe each case was decided on its merits. This must have lead to some borderline and subjective decisions on occasions. I would have said that being in a PoW camp would count as still being 'on duty' but obviously the death through illness was not counted as a war cause (we don't know what type of illness. It is possible that it had nothing to do with their imprisonment or sinking). Perhaps whoever was deciding on the day that their case came up was being particularly pernickerty. (These names would have been decided by the Board of Trade at the time).

[SiegeGunner]

Thanks, Terry. Interesting to learn that the decision on these men's eligibility would have been made by the Board of Trade, as I used to work for the BoT's successor, the DTI (itself now gone), and was a member of the team that researched and reinstated the BoT Memorial. The BoT's own internal committee was evidently more sympathetic, as it decided in 1921 to include the name of a man who has only been accepted for commemoration by MoD/CWGC in the last few weeks.

It occurs to me that if these men were technically civilians, they were presumably not covered by the ban on the repatriation of remains and could theoretically have been brought home for re-burial after the war. If, on the other hand, they were/are covered, and are therefore still 'on duty' in a foreign land 90+ years later, they most certainly should be commemorated. One hopes that they are at least remembered in their home ports.

[Terry Denham]

Their commemoration depends, as I said, on their meeting two criteria - not only being 'on duty'. Their cause of death is equally important.

There were a number of civilian organisations which were granted war grave status ONLY if the casualty met BOTH these criteria. The Mercantile Marine, Red Cross, VADs, YMCA and some others all had to undergo this test. The same applied in WW2 but the list of organisations was longer.

You are partially right about the repatriation. In fact one Mercantile Marine man was repatriated after the war (Fryatt). However, such repatriations would still depend on the laws of the country in which they were buried and the fact that exhumation and repatriation from a CWGC cemetery is forbidden. However, these men were possibly buried somewhere else at first as was Fryatt.