Battle Honours - How were thery determined ?

[RodB]

I've been tracing the movements of 42nd (East Lancs) Division on the Western Front and trying to relate its actions to the "official" battle names later determined. Most cases I find a match.

However, I can't find any reference to Ypres battle honours for 42nd Division. 125 Brigade (Lancashire Fusiliers) were involved in heavy fighting in Septembr 1917 around Frezenburg and lost 800 men in failed "limited" attacks, and the divisional artillery lost hundreds from gas and shellfire in support of other limited attacks during 2 weeks continual frontline action.

Do such "limited actions" not get counted as battle honours - does the action have to be part of some major action ? Strangely, I get the impression that a large number of the war's casualties were incurred in precisely such limited actions, invariably failures.

[stevem49]

Rod

Do you mean Battles fought in rather than Battle honours. Battle Honours were given to Regiments - for example -

Lancashire Fus - Ypres 1917 Pilckem, Langemarck 1917, Menin Road, Polygon wood, Broodseinde, Poelcapelle.

Divisions would be mentioned in Battle and engagments of the British Armies in France and Flanders, 1914-1918.

Minor operations were not mentioned in this and on some occasions a Division fought but it fell outside of the area covered by the Battle. Using the Geographical area - some troops inside the area did not fight but got mentioned whilst others fought but outside the area - so no mention. The Battles Nomenclature Committee did not define the area of battle very well for 3rd Ypres.

Example - My 11th Division part of Fifth Army carried out minor operations in August which did not get mentioned in the Battles fought but were in Haig's dispatch of December 1917.

Many of these actions would be tactical in moving parts of the line forward etc.

Hope that makes sense!

stevem

[truthergw]

The geographical extent and duration in time of actions was decided by a committee. The same people gave it its name and decided whether it was a battle or an action etc. All this was , of course, decided after the event. There is a slim book published by N&M which gives a list of the official names etc.

[stevem49]

Just checked me book -

The 34th, 42nd and 47th Divisions went into the line on the battle front, but did not take part in any specified battle.

(A Record of the Battles and Engagements of the British Armies in France and Flanders, 1914-1918. Captain E A James. The London Stamp Exchange 1990. First published 1924.)

stevem

[themonsstar]

The Book:

The Official Names of the Battles and other Engagements fought by The Military Forces of the British Empire during The Great War 1914-19, and the Third Afghan War 1919. Would help you.

[RodB]

Rod

Do you mean Battles fought in rather than Battle honours. Battle Honours were given to Regiments - for example -

Lancashire Fus - Ypres 1917 Pilckem, Langemarck 1917, Menin Road, Polygon wood, Broodseinde, Poelcapelle.

Divisions would be mentioned in Battle and engagments of the British Armies in France and Flanders, 1914-1918.

Minor operations were not mentioned in this and on some occasions a Division fought but it fell outside of the area covered by the Battle. Using the Geographical area - some troops inside the area did not fight but got mentioned whilst others fought but outside the area - so no mention. The Battles Nomenclature Committee did not define the area of battle very well for 3rd Ypres.

Example - My 11th Division part of Fifth Army carried out minor operations in August which did not get mentioned in the Battles fought but were in Haig's dispatch of December 1917.

Many of these actions would be tactical in moving parts of the line forward etc.

Hope that makes sense!

stevem

I mean battles fought in and significant casualties incurred in pursuit of a specific objective (i.e. a specific attack or defense against an attack).

I'm not a military man (I was so bad in cadets they threw me out of rifle drill). Can you explain the difference between Battle Honour and Battle Fought in ? Seems to me a total of nearly 1000 casualties in two weeks out of +- 5000 men engaged (125 Brigade + Divisional artillery) amounts to a battle fought in, if not particularly heavy by Western Front standards. Do you mean that military folks look to the regimental battle honours rather than the official story of the parent operational units ? I.e. would the actions I described above be noted under Lancashire Fusiliers battle honours, ascribed to the appropriate battalions, irrespective of whether the historians could be bothered to include the Division in the official battle classification ?

Who grants these regimental honours and where can I access them ? Some ancient filing cabinet in th basement of a hall in Salford that hasn't been opened in 60 years ?

[Crunchy]

Can you explain the difference between Battle Honour and Battle Fought in ?

Hi Rod,

I'll give it a go.

Battle Honours are an "honour" that a particular regiment (or a battalion of it) earned by fighting in a particular battle. They are awarded to infantry and cavalry regiments and selected honours are emblazoned on their colours (infantry) and guidons (cavalry). Where an infantry regiment does not have colours, such as the Rifle Brigade and Kings Royal Rifle Corps, selected battle honours are inscribed on their hat badges. Naval ships and Air Force squadrons are also awarded battle honours. The Royal Artillery and the Royal Engineers have been awarded "Ubique" meaning "Everywhere" in lieu of battle honours for particular actions. (Some wits quip that "Ubique" for the RA means "All over the place")

Initially battle honours were only awarded for a victory. Thus some Regiments carry "Minden" on their colours (a 1759 victory), but there was no battle honour awarded for Fontenoy (a 1745 defeat). There were no battle honours awarded for the battles fought in the American War of Independence, although the British had a number of victories in that War. This appears to have changed in the Great War as battle honours were awarded for Gallipoli ("Gallipoli 1915" "Helles" Krithia" "Sari Bair" etc) although the campaign was a defeat and the Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps were awarded "Hong Kong" for their participation in the defence of the island in 1942 although they were defeated by the Japanese.

In the late 19th century "Battle Honours" began being awarded for a campaign thus, for example, The Dorset Regiment was awarded "South Africa 1899 -1902" as a battle honour for their particiaption in the South African War (Boer War) and the Scots Guards were awarded "Tumbledown Mountain" (battle) and "Falklands Islands 1982" (campaign) for their participation in the Falklands War.

Battle honours are granted by the Royal Prerogative of the Monarch for British and Commonwealth units. They are adjudicated and recommended by a military committee. The oldest British battle honour, chronologically, is "Tangier 1662-80" awarded to the 2nd Regiment of Foot, now part of The Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment.

Regards

Chris

[stevem49]

Rod

Chris has answered it very well. Sorry I did not make it plainer in the first place.

Some of the Geographical areas used by the committee were a real pain particularly for 3rd Ypres.

stevem

[squirrel]

And battle honours are not always named after the exact area where the battle was fought but a place close to it. Waterloo is an example. And they don't always spell the place names correctly either. Blenheim is actually Blindhelm and was when the name was chosen.

[Mark Hone]

I have found that the awarding of battle honours is very haphazard while researching Bury men who fought in the Lancashire Fusiliers. The Regiment bears the battle honour 'Delville Wood' but their active participation in the struggle for that wood seems to have consisted of one battalion conducting a small trench raid that the very thorough Regimental History couldn't find any information on whatsoever. (It did see the death of former Bury Grammar School Captain John Maddox however)

[Jack Sheldon]

For anyone with an interest in this subject, may I recommend Battle Honours of the British and Commonwealth Armies by Anthony Baker and published in 1986 by Guild Publishing? You should be able to get it via an inter-library loan. It provides a complete list of who was entitled to what - and a brief line or two about what happened. It is an excellent reference book which covers the subject comprehensively from Tangier 1662 - 1680 to the Falklands Campaign. I should add that inevitably there are anomalies. 'Hooge' (near Ypres) is not a battle honour, despite being very hard fought on various occasions. It was up to regimental headquarters after the war to submit claims for battle honours, by virtue of presence at a particular place and time. There was a cut off date in the early 1920s, but I have forgotten it.

Jack

[dycer]

Rod,

Unfortunately I'm computer illiterate so I'll do this the hard way.

If you go to the Forum Site "Passchendale Archives" you'll find a Thread "Passchendale Battle Dates" started on 18 December 2006.

It discusses the Official Dates of Third Ypres and some of the subsiduary actions(sic) included in the Battle.

The Thread may help to answer your question.

George

[Gibbo]

From the Anthony Baker book recommended by Jack, the Lancashire Fusiliers have the battle honour for the 3rd Battle of Ypres & those for all the battles within it that were separately honoured. I've followed Baker in quoting the dates for which the honour was awarded but the actual titles of the honours are the names in bold.

31 July - 10 Nov 1917 Ypres 1917

31 July - 2 Aug Pilckem

16-18 Aug Langemarck 1917

20-25 Sept Menin Road

26 Sept - 3 Oct Polygon Wood

4 Oct Broodseinde

9 Oct Poelcappelle

12 Oct & 26 Oct - 10 Nov Passchendaele

Baker also lists honours unsuccessfully applied for; there are a couple for 3rd Ypres but not by the Lancashire Fusiliers. There is a Frezenberg honour, which the Lancashire Fusiliers don't have, but it's part of the 2nd Battle of Ypres in 1915.

PS: I've just looked at The Long, Long Trail's entry on 3rd Ypres & it doesn't list the 42nd Division so these honours must have been won by other battalions of the regiment so I can't answer your question except for the Frezenberg battle honoured being the one in 1915. I suppose though that my mistake does show that honours are awarded to regiments rather than divisions or individual battalions.

[RodB]

I think that these specific "limited actions" were carried out as necessary preliminaries to launching the actual battle - to eliminate key fortifications and to occupy and/or deny to the enemy some key high ground. But they in themselves tended to become costly battles in their own right.

As such I'm not sure how such actions were viewed by the high command.

[pw643]

'Ubique' is well known as everywhere and that the Artillery have it's guns as colours although most batteries carry titles i.e 57 (Bhurtpore) Bty RA or L (Nery) Bty RHA. The bracketed battles are carried as official titles. There are however some exceptions such as 1st Bty RA (Blazers), The brackets placed after 'RA' denotes an unofficial title. The 'Blazers' have never submitted a claim for a battle honour with which they would almost certainly have succeded but have tried to the present day to move Blazers before the RA

Paul

[nigelcave]

For anyone with an interest in this subject, may I recommend Battle Honours of the British and Commonwealth Armies by Anthony Baker and published in 1986 by Guild Publishing? You should be able to get it via an inter-library loan. It provides a complete list of who was entitled to what - and a brief line or two about what happened. It is an excellent reference book which covers the subject comprehensively from Tangier 1662 - 1680 to the Falklands Campaign. I should add that inevitably there are anomalies. 'Hooge' (near Ypres) is not a battle honour, despite being very hard fought on various occasions. It was up to regimental headquarters after the war to submit claims for battle honours, by virtue of presence at a particular place and time. There was a cut off date in the early 1920s, but I have forgotten it.

Jack

There is also another first rate book 'The Battle Honours of the Britiah and Indian Armies 1662 - 1982' by HCB Cook, Leo Cooper 1987. He notes the following Battle Honours for 1915: Neuve Chapelle, Hill 60, Ypres 1915, Gravenstafel, St Julien, Frezenberg, Bellewaarde, Aubers, Festubert 1915, Hooge 1915, Loos, France and Flanders 1915 - 1918, France and Flanders 1915-1917, 1918, and France and Flanders 1915. Hooge was awarded to nineteen regiments but carried by the DLI and Queen's Westminsters only.

He makes no mention of Fontenoy and says that defeats were only included amongst Battle Honours after WWI (ie it included battles fought during it). It also has an introductory essay. Many of the honours were awarded years after the event - for example Namur 1690 was awarded in 1910! The Middx got 93 Battle Honours in WWI and the Hampshires 91; the majority of regiments of the line over 60. They were only supposed to carry ten, but by cunning means some pushed this up to a dozen or so.

NTAC

For anyone with an interest in this subject, may I recommend Battle Honours of the British and Commonwealth Armies by Anthony Baker and published in 1986 by Guild Publishing? You should be able to get it via an inter-library loan. It provides a complete list of who was entitled to what - and a brief line or two about what happened. It is an excellent reference book which covers the subject comprehensively from Tangier 1662 - 1680 to the Falklands Campaign. I should add that inevitably there are anomalies. 'Hooge' (near Ypres) is not a battle honour, despite being very hard fought on various occasions. It was up to regimental headquarters after the war to submit claims for battle honours, by virtue of presence at a particular place and time. There was a cut off date in the early 1920s, but I have forgotten it.

Jack

There is also another first rate book 'The Battle Honours of the Britiah and Indian Armies 1662 - 1982' by HCB Cook, Leo Cooper 1987. He notes the following Battle Honours for 1915: Neuve Chapelle, Hill 60, Ypres 1915, Gravenstafel, St Julien, Frezenberg, Bellewaarde, Aubers, Festubert 1915, Hooge 1915, Loos, France and Flanders 1915 - 1918, France and Flanders 1915-1917, 1918, and France and Flanders 1915. Hooge was awarded to nineteen regiments but carried by the DLI and Queen's Westminsters only.

He makes no mention of Fontenoy and says that defeats were only included amongst Battle Honours after WWI (ie it included battles fought during it). It also has an introductory essay. Many of the honours were awarded years after the event - for example Namur 1690 was awarded in 1910! The Middx got 93 Battle Honours in WWI and the Hampshires 91; the majority of regiments of the line over 60. They were only supposed to carry ten, but by cunning means some pushed this up to a dozen or so.

NTAC