Labyrinth

[Jon6640]

I was reading through volume four of The Great War, The Standard History of the All Europe Conflict, edited by H.W Wilson when I saw a map of the battle line from Ypres to Belfort and Altkirch. (Page 195). On the map just to the North East of Ypres is a symbol of a star with a dot inside which is marked as Labyrinth. It is written in bold capitol letters. Does anyone know what this refers to? It is the only such entry on the map.

Many thanks

Jon

[Martin Bennitt]

I was reading through volume four of The Great War, The Standard History of the All Europe Conflict, edited by H.W Wilson when I saw a map of the battle line from Ypres to Belfort and Altkirch. (Page 195). On the map just to the North East of Ypres is a symbol of a star with a dot inside which is marked as Labyrinth. It is written in bold capitol letters. Does anyone know what this refers to? It is the only such entry on the map.

Many thanks

Jon

Keep reading, Jon (you're not tackling it cover to cover, are you?). From page 248 onwards there is a description of the battle for "the famous underground fortress of the Labyrinth" (northeast of Arras, by the way, not Ypres). It's in the index in the last volume when you get to it in a year or so

cheers Martin B

[roel22]

Is anything left of this labyrinth? Never heard of it before, must be fascinating.

Roel

[Martin Bennitt]

Is anything left of this labyrinth? Never heard of it before, must be fascinating.

Roel

It's just outside Neuville St Vaast, between Arras and Vimy and not far from Notre Dame de Lorette. From the more detailed map on page 233 of the book Jon is wading through it covered a considerable area. A google search seems to indicate there are remains. Another place on my 'to visit' list.

cheers Martin B

[roel22]

Another place on my 'to visit' list.

cheers Martin B

Can't wait to go there.

Don't know about the wife & kids though

[CROONAERT]

A google search seems to indicate there are remains. Another place on my 'to visit' list.

Some of the remains (especially the underground ones) have disappeared over the past few years. Entrance to some of the tunnels was attainable only 5 or 6 years ago, but these entrances had all disappeared at last visit. If I'm not mistaken, the German cemetery near Maison Blanche was built over part of it.

(Incidentally,there actually was a Labyrinth NE of Ypres too.)

Dave

[roel22]

(Incidentally,there actually was a Labyrinth NE of Ypres too.)

Dave

Curious again...where exactly was it?

And how can a underground labyrinth disappear (apart from the entrances), when it's not completely blown up?

Roel

[PBI]

There was indeed a Labyrinth in the Village At Mont Kemmel,there is a Bar there which Bears this Name.Het Labyrint.

[roel22]

But Dave is referring to a labyrinth northeast (NE) of Ypres, whereas Kemmel is south.

[dycer]

The following is an extract of a Battalion History for a period in April 1916 describing the location and impression of a Labyrinth.

"The long stretch from Honval to Louez was a distance of 20 miles,and a severe teat to the men.The Division(51st) relieved the French in the "Labyrinth" and neighbouring trenches near Roclincourt,-------.Headquarters and "A" Company were billeted in Louez,and "B","C",and "D" Companies in Maroeuil.Work continued for the rest of the month on the communication trench system"

It would,therefore,appear Jon is referring to the other Labyrinth.

George

[Martin Bennitt]

The following is an extract of a Battalion History for a period in April 1916 describing the location and impression of a Labyrinth.

"The long stretch from Honval to Louez was a distance of 20 miles,and a severe teat to the men.The Division(51st) relieved the French in the "Labyrinth" and neighbouring trenches near Roclincourt,-------.Headquarters and "A" Company were billeted in Louez,and "B","C",and "D" Companies in Maroeuil.Work continued for the rest of the month on the communication trench system"

It would,therefore,appear Jon is referring to the other Labyrinth.

George

The only labyrinth marked on the map Jon referred to in his first post is the one near Arras, to be precise between Neuville Saint Vaast and Roclincourt. There is no Labyrinth marked near Ypres on that map. IMHO he wrote Ypres when he meant Arras, but that's for him to confirm. The position was captured by the French in June 1915 after weeks of fighting. Google Labyrinthe + Neuville and you'll get links to a number of sites in French on the battle.

cheers Martin B

[roel22]

Ofcourse there's the recently discovered Vampire-dugout near Zonnebeke, which pretty much has the size of a true labyrinth...

http://www.cronaca.com/archives/004922.html

This one is NE of Ypres. But as far as I know it's still there. Waiting to be excavated...

Roel

[dycer]

The only labyrinth marked on the map Jon referred to in his first post is the one near Arras, to be precise between Neuville Saint Vaast and Roclincourt. There is no Labyrinth marked near Ypres on that map. IMHO he wrote Ypres when he meant Arras, but that's for him to confirm. The position was captured by the French in June 1915 after weeks of fighting. Google Labyrinthe + Neuville and you'll get links to a number of sites in French on the battle.

cheers Martin B

Martin,

I'm quoting from the History of the 8th Royal Scots which my Uncle, as a member of, was present when the Division took over the "Arras" Labyrinth from the French and as the History goes on to record "and began their associations with a sector they subsequently came to regard as almost their own." I could go on and give descriptions of the acconts of German mining in the area and the British surface counter measues.

Croonaert(Dave),whom I regard as the Forum Expert on Trench Maps,has identified another Labyrinth in the Ypres Sector, so you are correct Jon has to identify the one he is seeking information about.

George

[Jon6640]

There is no Labyrinth marked near Ypres on that map. IMHO he wrote Ypres when he meant Arras, but that's for him to confirm.

cheers Martin B

Martin is correct, it was Arras, and IMHO I am clearly a moron!

[uncle bill]

Dave and Martin are right about the Arras labyrinth. Most of it is under the German cemetery at Maison Blanche. I have read French accounts of the fighting in the 'maze' of underground caves there and they are some of the most horrific of the entire war. Men fought in the pitch black with knives and clubs. I was fortunate enough recently to go down some of these caves that were later used by the Canadians before Vimy. The amount of soldier's graffiti was amazing and there was plenty of 'materiel' left around. Apart from the Canadian graffiti there was aslo some French from 1915 and that left by Belgian refugees during 1940.

[dycer]

Jon,

Don't kick yourself,that's the beauty of the Forum.

Trouble is.Someone is going to ask for information about the other "Labyrinth"

George

[uncle bill]

www.greatwardifferent.com/.../Labyrinth_01.htm.

[dycer]

A descrption of the Sector in Spring/early summer 1916

"The work of trench,dug-out,and shelter construction was continued.Shell and trench mortar fire constantly interrupted work,and frequently the work of a week was destroyed in a few minutes.In front of Neuville St Vaast,the enemy employed mines three or four nights a week.The Battalion gave exhibitions to the Division of wiring and consolidating mine craters,and surprised the spectators by the rapidity the wire was erected.A section of nine men erected 50 yards of single apron in nine minutes.These exhibitions were frequently put to practical use,and on several occasions valuable consolidation of mine craters was done in close proximity to the enemy."

It indeed sounds like a nasty place.

George

[Martin Bennitt]

You've not answered my first question, Jon. Are you reading Wilson and Hammerton from cover to cover? If not, why not, and has anyone (else) tried it?

cheers Martin B

[Jack Sheldon]

Here are a couple of maps which show the precise location of the Labyrinth. The German one is from the history of IR 160 which fought there in May 1915. Neither comes anywhere near to showing the total bewildering complexity of the area which was derived originally from the German seige tactics used during late 1914 and early 1915 to try to advance the line: endless sapping forward at an angle, followed by the production of T saps and parallels. This, coupled with constant destructive French shelling which kept wrecking the work, meant that ever more trenches had to be dug in an attempt to achieve the siege objective - hence the Labyrinth of trenches and other earthworks.

However, the actual Labyrinth, as opposed to the overall dense network of trenches, is relatively small, it is not under the German cemetery at Maison Blanche and there are no visible traces of it left. if you wish to drive more or less through the centre of where it was located go to Nine Elms Cemetery then, on your way back along the part of the new access road running north towards the civilian cemetery at NSV, look left (incidentally the road is more or less where the German front line was on 9 Apr 17). After a few hundred metres a road goes off left at a reasonably acute angle. This gradually rises towards the D 49E and, as it does, you are in the back end of the Labyrinth. The Tsing Tao Graben was slightly forward of and parallel to, the road. That was the front edge of the Labyrinth.

Jack

[chrrip]

The work on the top of the map "ouvrages blancs' was just as formidable as the labyrinthe - both finally fell to the french on june 10th 1915 after savage fighting; they blocked the route to Vimy Ridge

[Jon6640]

You've not answered my first question, Jon. Are you reading Wilson and Hammerton from cover to cover? If not, why not, and has anyone (else) tried it?

cheers Martin B

Martin,

I think I've bottled it and am reading chapters which draw my interest, have you achieved such a feat yourself?

Jon

[Martin Bennitt]

Martin,

I think I've bottled it and am reading chapters which draw my interest, have you achieved such a feat yourself?

Jon

No, I found the full bound set of reprints that were published a few years back, in a charity shop in Wilmslow in February. They were in perfect nick and going at half price, so I bought them as a 60th birthday present to myself. They're a great curiosity and I find something interesting every time I dip in. But that's all I'm doing at the moment. They're a bit bulky to read in the train on the way to work, or even in bed at night. Perhaps one day if I break my leg or something...

cheers Martin B

[Jon6640]

Perhaps one day if I break my leg or something...

I think one forum member laid up at a time is enough.... eh Andy (aka Max)?

Jon