Machine Gun Corps Cavalry

[Mikeb]

He was previously Pte. 3320 City of London Yeomanry, volunteered 4th Aug. 1914, 3 days before his 18th. he survived the war, Victory Medal, British Medal, He had serious chest problems later in life, l was told he had been "gased", his daughter (my mum!!) is 80 this year (they share the same birth date), I would like to help her know where and what her father did, any help you can give, I would do the research, can you help with military history and where to look? i.e. why was he in a London reg. he lived in the Midlands, he joined in 1914, why didnt he go straight to france?, why was he swapped from Cavalry reg. to MGC ? where was he and why?

sorry if l have bored you all, l am a complete novice sorry.

Mike.

[Coldstreamer]

suprised he didnt qualify for a 14/15 star (1914 unlikely)

Medal card of Farmer, John Ernest

Corps Regiment No Rank

City of London Yeomanry 3320 Private

Machine Gun Corps Cavalry 169346 Private

[Broken link removed]

could have swapped as machine gunners in more demand than cavalry

[Coldstreamer]

[Mikeb]

Not sure city of london yeo even went to France

Thats what I thought, do we think they went to the middle-east, and so did not qualify for 14/15 star?

[Coldstreamer]

Ive deleted some posts and copied this in - more explanatory

[Coldstreamer]

I think they would qualify for some 14/15 stars due to Egypt

[Mikeb]

Thanks for that, this is brilliant!!, would we know if the reg. stayed together, do youy think %wise he would have been part of that?

[Coldstreamer]

seems likely

[Mikeb]

I think they would qualify for some 14/15 stars due to Egypt

Wikipedia research, which is not 100% says, you had to be Western Front at the start only, i.e. the full time army that was sent. to get the first medal of a set of three, but l bow to your greater knowledge.

[Mikeb]

seems likely

Thankyou, can l pester you some more and ask, can l find out from this, where and what they were doing? i.e. what chance have l got to find his unit or whatever he was in, or am l now being stupid?

[Coldstreamer]

Wikipedia research, which is not 100% says, you had to be Western Front at the start only, i.e. the full time army that was sent. to get the first medal of a set of three, but l bow to your greater knowledge.

western and eastern europe, egypt, afrca, asiatic, pacific - world wide

[Coldstreamer]

Thankyou, can l pester you some more and ask, can l find out from this, where and what they were doing? i.e. what chance have l got to find his unit or whatever he was in, or am l now being stupid?

specific details would be in the war diary held at the NA, kew - persconal details in his papers if they exist

worth a new post as someone may have a copy of the diayr

[Armoured Farmer]

Some information on the Long Long Trail here:-

http://www.1914-1918.net/CAVALRY/city_london.htm

War Diaries at Kew: -

WO 95/4293 2 Composite Mounted Brigade: 1/1 City of London Yeomanry 1915 Aug. - Oct.

WO 95/4425 1/1 City of London Yeomanry 1916 Mar. - Oct.

WO 95/4507 8 Mounted Brigade (1/1 London Mounted Brigade): 1/1 City of London Yeomanry 1917 July - 1918 Apr.

WO 95/4793 8 Mounted Brigade: 1/1 City of London Yeomanry 1916 Nov. - 1917 June

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...&image1.y=0

WO 95/247 103 (City and County of London Yeomanry) Battalion Machine Gun Corps 1918 May - 1919 Apr.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...;accessmethod=0

[Mikeb]

specific details would be in the war diary held at the NA, kew - persconal details in his papers if they exist

worth a new post as someone may have a copy of the diayr

Excuse my use of army lingo,(ex REME Sgt.) Bloody Hell !!!, thank you all, do you mind if l pester you all again when ive searched?, Thankyou all

[Coldstreamer]

ask all you want - good luck

[Staffsyeoman]

How he ended up in MGC© can be quite simple; if he was in the Machine Gun Section of his Cavalry Regiment in late 1915, and trained on the Vickers, they were transferred en bloc to the new formation, the Cavalry Branch of the MGC.

A word of caution; if memory serves, the WO95 of 103 Bn is not particularly informative. I will get to the checklist of the ones we've read and let you know.

[Stebie9173]

If he went overseas in 1915, John would have first seen battle on Gallipoli. The City of London Yeomanry landed (without their horses!) on Gallipoli at Suvla Bay on 18th August 1915, and fought at the battle of Scimitar Hill on 21st August suffering heavy casualties. They remained on Gallipoli for several months after that where many soldiers in the later months of 1915 suffered heavily from disease, as well as from the Turks.

In late 1915, the Rough Riders were employed in the campaign against the Senussi tribesmen of Libya who attacked Western Egypt with the aid of the Turks, including a battle at Wadi Majid on Christmas Day 1915.

From Egypt in 1916 the Rough Riders have a battle honour for the defence of Romani on 3rd August 1916, where the Australian and New Zealand Cavalry formations, assistd by the British 5th Mounted Brigade, defeated a Turkish attempt to seize the Suez Canal. The Turks were forced to withdraw for lack of water after being held at Romani. (I can't find specific reference to the Rough Riders at Romani but they have the battle as a battle honour which suggests they were there or thereabouts) EDIT : Found the reference - they were part of a raid against Bir el Maghara, 50 miles south east of Romani on 15th September 1916.

In Palestine John would have been at the 3rd battle of Gaza, namely the cavalry actions at Beersheba, that acted as a diversionary attack for the Infantry attacks on Gaza, but were a major battle in their own right. The Yeomanry Mounted Division was held in Reserve for that battle however and used soon after at Sheria.

http://www.1914-1918.net/CAVALRY/city_london.htm

As mentioned in the above link (that Armoured Farmer also posted) the whole of the battalion converted into a Machine Gun battalion in April 1918, hence the transfer to the Machine Gun Corps. They fought on the Western Front for the last 4 and a bit months of the War. His numbers fit pretty well perfectly with these events.

http://www.1914-1918.net/CAVALRY/yeomtddiv.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Scimitar_Hill

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Romani

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Beersheba

In summary:

28 April 1915 To Gallipoli. Witnessed the landings at Cape Helles but didn't land.

6 May 1915 Egypt (Allied base)

18 August 1915 Landed at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli

21 August 1915 Battle of Scimitar Hill

3 November 1915 To Mudros (Med stopping off base)

29 November 1915 To Egypt

December 1915 Senussi Campaign

25 December 1915 Battle at Wadi Majid

3 August 1916 Battle of Romani

15 September 1916 raid against Bir el Maghara

16 November 1916 To Salonika

4 June 1917 Returned to Egypt

20-22 June 1917 Joined 8th Mounted Brigade in Yeomanry Mounted Division at Khan Yunis in Palestine

31 October 1917 GHQ Reserve at battle of Beersheba

6 November 1917 Action at Sheria.

13-14 November 1917 Action at El Maghar

17-24 November 1917 Battle of Nabi Samweil

27-29 November 1917 Capture of Jerusalem

7 April 1918 1/1st city of London Yeomanry left Yeomanry Mounted Division and formed E Battalion, MGC

June 1918 Travelled to France via Italy

19 August 1918 "E" Battalion MGC redesignated as 103rd battalion Machine Gun Corps, attached to 1st Army.

August to November 1918 - Took part in the Advance to Victory/Last 100 Days on the Western Front (though he wouldn't have fought in every battle below):

26th - 30th August 1918 The Battle of the Scarpe -

2nd - 3rd September 1918 The Battle of Drocourt-Queant

27th September - 1st October 1918 The Battle of the Canal du Nord

8th - 9th October 1918 The Battle of Cambrai, 1918

9th - 12th October 1918 The Pursuit to the Selle

17th October 1918 The Capture of Douai

17th - 25th October 1918 The Battle of the Selle

1st - 2nd November 1918 The Battle of Valenciennes

4th November 1918 The Battle of the Sambre

5th - 7th November 1918 The Passage of the Grand Honelle

11th November 1918 The Capture of Mons

Steve.

[Armoured Farmer]

How he ended up in MGC© can be quite simple; if he was in the Machine Gun Section of his Cavalry Regiment in late 1915, and trained on the Vickers, they were transferred en bloc to the new formation, the Cavalry Branch of the MGC.

A word of caution; if memory serves, the WO95 of 103 Bn is not particularly informative. I will get to the checklist of the ones we've read and let you know.

Even more simple, the 1/1st City of London Yeomanry became 103rd Bn MGC.

[Stebie9173]

I suspect his gassing may have occured in the last few months of the war whilst on the Western Front.

Steve.

[Staffsyeoman]

Even more simple, the 1/1st City of London Yeomanry became 103rd Bn MGC.

Indeed so - but the implication is he became MGC Cavalry BEFORE the wholesale conversion of 1/1 CLY in 1918 (and as a 1914 enlistee that's a good possibility). So I stick to my original suggestion.

[Stebie9173]

169346 would strike me as a 1918 Vintage MGC number, Phil. I would personally edge towards the entire unit conversion route with his MGC number issued in April 1918.

Looking further:

Looking at the Medal Index Cards there is a big swath of City of London Yeomanry transferring to the MGC with numbers in the 150000 to 151000. (523 of approx 800 ORs with both service in City of London Yeomanry and Machine Gun Corps). There are also some later numbers in the 166xxx range and obviously farmer's 169xxx. The men who transferred with lower numbers than 150000 seem to be designated as "Machine Gun Corps Cavalry" in general (97 of the 800, mostly with numbers around 100000 to 110000).

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Ah, I see what you mean, Phil.

14 of the 97 ex-City of London Yeomanry and later MGC Cavalry have numbers 169xxx, including Farmer. Interesting....

Wonder when they transferred? Mid-1918 would be likely if the numbers were allocated in numeric order as the MGC numbers appear to be in general, but we can't be certain that this wasn't an odd numbering batch completely out of the normal order.

Looking further, the batch of 14 transfers (+2 not designated cavalry):

169338 Butcher, Percy Frederick, previously 2nd CLY 81232

169339 Birkett, George William, previously 2nd CLY 116108

169343 Ridley, Edward R, previously CLY 2103

169344 Fewell, Harry Peter, previously 2nd CLY 81233

169345 Smith, Sydney G, previously CLY 2920

169346 Farmer, John Ernest, previously CLY 3320

169347 Wilson, C J, previously CLY 1850 (Not designated as Cavalry section)

169348 -

169349 Hayward, Frank B, previously CLY 3101 (Not designated as Cavalry section)

169350 Chapman, Philip, previously CLY 31077

169351 Hadley, Cyril George, previously CLY 30997

169352 Brooks, Sidney Charles, previously CLY 30780

169353 Dewey, Charles, Previously CLY 323

169354 Donnelly, Percy Robert, Previously CLY 4092

169355 Farn, Herbert Gerald, Previously CLY 31076

169480 Aylward, Reginald W, Previously CLY 1833

169481 Bridges, Charles William, Previously CLY 3632

Looks like most of these men transferred in a Draft together?

If John Farmer's service record hasn't survived these men may well be an alternate research route?

Steve.

[Armoured Farmer]

Indeed so - but the implication is he became MGC Cavalry BEFORE the wholesale conversion of 1/1 CLY in 1918 (and as a 1914 enlistee that's a good possibility). So I stick to my original suggestion.

True enough this is a possibility but I would go with the regimental numbers in the MGC (see Stebie9173 previous 2 posts)

Hugh

[Stebie9173]

Should we settle this in the proper manner? Swords or pistols, gentlemen?

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Renumbering of City of London Yeomanry to MGC (All Lines by MGC number)

All numbers approximate as they could include numbers from other Regiments/Corps.

1xxxx 10

2xxxx 0

3xxxx 25

4xxxx 2

5xxxx 0

6xxxx 0

7xxxx 1

8xxxx 22

9xxxx 5

10xxxx 14

11xxxx 121

12xxxx 42

13xxxx 5

14xxxx 1

15xxxx 523 + approx 10 incompletes

16xxxx 112

17xxxx 8

18xxxx 1

So our 15xxxx series probably coincides with the transfer in April 1918 to the MGC. There may be a simlar number from the County of London Yeomanry since E battalion was created from the merged Yeomanry battalions.

There are very few transfers from the start of the MGC in early 1916. The 3xxxx series may reflect the transfer out of the MG sections.

The interesting peaks are the 121 in the 11xxxx series (late 1917?) and the 112 in the 16xxxx series (late 1918?)

I can only theorise that these later 16xxxx men were wounded or sick men (or in the case of the higher numbers, perhaps conscripts) that didn't transfer to the MGC in April 1918, but stayed with the UK battalion(s) of the City of London Yeomanry (i.e. those that hadn't converted to the MGC) and then supplied Drafts to the old 1/1st City of London Yeomanry and converted to MGC men at that point. Does that theory hold water?

Inching a bit further out onto the high branch, could we surmise that since all of the group of 12 men 169343 to 169355 moved from City of London Yeomanry to MGC Cavalry, that they were going out to E Btn/103rd Btn on the assumption that the 2/1 and 3/1 City of London Yeomanry was providing Drafts for E battalion in a Territorial fashion? Obviously, this case would be strengthened if regularly Drafts could be established as fact.

Steve.